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by CJ
27 Mar 2024, 12:35pm
Forum: Electrically assisted pedal cycles
Topic: Is 250w enough power for modest speed up steep hills
Replies: 331
Views: 29360

Re: Is 250w enough power for modest speed up steep hills

UpWrong wrote: 10 Mar 2024, 5:20pm Have to say the controller rating makes sense but I'm not an engineer. Suggestions as to why this wasn't the method used?
Because what matters from a regulatory point of view is the amount of mechanical power delivered, not the electricity consumed in getting it - quite a lot of which is wasted in heat.

Rather like some of the comments on here!
by CJ
27 Mar 2024, 12:28pm
Forum: Electrically assisted pedal cycles
Topic: Is 250w enough power for modest speed up steep hills
Replies: 331
Views: 29360

Re: Is 250w enough power for modest speed up steep hills

Bonzo Banana wrote: 10 Mar 2024, 11:35am This continuous rating doesn't work, a Bosch mid-drive motor climbing a long hill for 5 minutes just uses it's maximum power for those 5 minutes which could be in the region of 800-900W.
Do you reckon? In that case, taking an average and adding 150W for a healthy but untrained rider in a hurry, we have a round kilowatt.

By my calculation (I have a spreadsheet, populated with data for cycling equipment and verified against rider performances): given a 70kg rider, 22kg of e-bike plus clothing, 0.55m2 frontal area, 1.15 drag coefficient, 0.008 tyre rolling coefficient, 95% transmission efficiency and 1000W... it should be possible to maintain the full permitted speed of 25kmph up most hills and only be slowed when the gradient gets steeper than 1:9.

Is there anyone with a Bosch mid-drive e-bike out there who can do that? Or do less steep hills also slow you down a bit? Do tell us the steepest hill you can ascend at full permitted speed. From that we can work out the truth of how much power these mid-drives actually deliver.

Meanwhile over on Strava we know there's a bit of a fuss about e-bikers taking KOMs from muscle-bikers, without fessing up to using E. But this seems to be mainly in America, where even Class1 e-bikes can do 20mph with up to 750W of 'assistance'. But if there's anyone over here logging segments on an EU-legal e-bike, do tell us on which climbs you beat the best muscle bikers - and by how much.

As I may have mentioned before, we are happy to have a few e-bikers join us on our Matlock CC social rides, one of whom has a high spec Bosch mid-drive. We're a load of old coffin-dodgers so she can beat most of us up the steep hills, but one or two can hold her off if they try. Given our age and distinctly also-ran ability, none of us will have anything like the power of a top pro, on which one can find quite a lot of useful data here. I think I max out at 200W these days, but I guess some of our number may be good for 300W. Putting the data for their bikes into my spreadsheet and comparing likely outcomes, I agree that the e-bike must be giving more than 250W of assistance when Jan puts it on 'Turbo' mode up a hill, but it doesn't look like more than twice that.

For the time being I'll assume that Bonzo Banana is talking about electrical power consumption, which is a whole lot easier to measure, can often be read most conveniently off the handlebar control unit of an e-bike, but isn't the same thing at all. Electric motors are not 100% efficient and only get near it when spinning at just the right speed. So the conveniently indicated power is always more than the actual assistance you're getting, which may be even less than half that. Quite frankly, it makes almost as much sense to measure the power of a human cyclist by counting the calories he eats! And without sight of their methodology, I'd be very surprised if Americans are daft enough to measure the power of e-bikes that way.
by CJ
26 Mar 2024, 11:46am
Forum: Electrically assisted pedal cycles
Topic: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping
Replies: 68
Views: 9178

Re: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping

Vantage wrote: 16 Aug 2023, 12:48pm There is freely available software endorsed by Bafang themselves to tweak the setting of their mid drive and I think hub drive motors.
The easiest way I personally find to do this is by an android (unsure if apple support it)app called speeed. The help menu covers every setting. The motor can as far as I know he set to pull away straight away from the smallest pedal push but you need to be careful with it. It can burn out the motor or throw Helen off the bike if it pulls too hard. You'll need a cable too. https://amzn.eu/d/gLUwP5u
Inspired by your post, I bit the bullet and bought a programming lead last August. I bought it from Elespeed, because of the many Ebay suppliers they seemed more likely to provide the after-sales help I thought I might need. I did, but they didn't! The lead and supplied software never worked properly. It seemed to communicate with the motor controller but only one-way, didn't let me change anything. But as with all computer problems, it's hard to tell where the problem lies, hardware or software. And by the time I'd given up trying different drivers etc, Ebay's returns window had closed and Elespeed never replied to any of my emails. So that was £15 down the drain. Maybe this lead might've worked with the Speeed app. I tried that too, but that app hasn't been kept up-to-date and wouldn't work with the newer version of Android used by my phone.

Reluctant though I was to throw good money after bad, I eventually (in November) bought another lead: this one from 'mhewebe'. I don't know if this is significant but it looks less 'home-made', being moulded in one piece, rather than assembled like the Elespeed lead within a transparent plastic sleeve. And it came with software on USB stick rather than download it yourself. And it worked straightaway!

Thanks to that I have programmed Helen's motor to assist in a similar manner with regard to cadence, at all levels of assistance. For as supplied by Bafang, the motor cuts the lower levels of power at progressively lower cadences. So if, like Helen, you prefer to pedal briskly, you don't get any help at all unless you either pedal unnaturally and inefficiently slow, or select an altogether much higher level of help than you need! I've also set the motor to cut in sooner after pedalling starts. Together, those changes have helped with starting - but not enough to start on steep hills.
Lazycarton wrote: 24 Mar 2024, 9:44amMy Wisper 905 Torque has a throttle as standard. It cuts off at 3.7mph when used on it's own but can assist up to 15.5mph if the cycle is pedalled at the same time. It is a really clever add-on and I think it would be the answer to your problem. Starting uphill is no problem at all and where I live there are may on road and off road places where I need it. When pedalling it is a hoot doing 15mph up some hills that would defeat now given my age and Long Covid...oh and dodgy L knee (my dominant leg). If I start halfway up a steep hill I turn the throttle and as I start pedalling it is like starting on the flat.
I think the throttle is still wanted and probably always will be for the steepest hills. And I reckon that I should now be able to program the Bafang system not to do anything naughty with it. But Helen remains reluctant to have anything on her bike that isn't utterly beyond legal reproach. And I'm prepared to wait and see if the assistance eventually gives her enough confidence that the bike will keep moving, simply to launch like I do (still without assistance).
by CJ
22 Mar 2024, 7:13pm
Forum: Touring & Expedition
Topic: European trains - sleeper service
Replies: 162
Views: 22165

Re: European trains - sleeper service

MrsHJ wrote: 22 Mar 2024, 6:40am Best Laid plans and the stoic and sick brits coping. It sounds a bit of a faff tbh. Did you enjoy it overall?
Yes, but not in parts. I think it's interesting how airlines cancel and bump people onto different flights than they paid for and mostly we just suck it up, but when trains do the same it's a big deal. Actually it is when there's no other transport short of a very expensive taxi! To be honest, successfully overcoming all the obstacles did add to the pleasure. And I did get to climb a mountain, and also showshoe within sight of moose and an arctic hare. Helen didn't get so much out of the trip, but can at least tick the Northern Lights off her bucket list, not that she has one AFAIK.
by CJ
21 Mar 2024, 9:49pm
Forum: Touring & Expedition
Topic: European trains - sleeper service
Replies: 162
Views: 22165

Re: European trains - sleeper service

Will wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 1:18pm
CJ wrote: 13 Dec 2023, 7:01pm Slightly off-topic, because we're not taking bikes, but in March my wife and I are making a bit of a sleeper-train saga, involving not one but two nights on the rails, in the hope of viewing the Aurora in Abisko at the northern tip of Sweden and perhaps also at Narvik in Norway.

First we'll tickatty-tock down to 'that London' for a weekend with our son's family, before boarding the first Eurostar of the day to Brussel Zuid. Here we connect with 'Die Bahn' and a chain of ICEs via Köln (and perhaps also Hannover) to Hamburg for dinner and the Swedish EuroNight train to Stockholm. After a day in the City of Islands we take another 'Nattåg' operated by Norwegian Vy trains to the far north. I expect we'll awake more or less as our train leaves the frozen Baltic coast for the more deeply frozen interior and disembark late morning at Abisko on the Scandinavian watershed. Three days later we continue on the 'Arctic Train' to Narvik, following the route of the Ofoten Line, built in 1902 to haul rich reserves of Kiruna iron all-year-round to an ice-free Atlantic port. As I said, we're not taking bikes, but I'll poke around the carriages and ask a few questions about that while I'm there.

Unfortunately I couldn't persuade Helen to spend another four days and two nights on trains to get home, so we're flying back to Manchester in 1/4 of the time for 1/3 the money - but 1/10th of the fun and no adventure at all!
I believe Vy acquired some of the combined Couchette and bike carriages (with 20 bike spaces) that used to be used for DB City Night Line services. They have removed some of the bike hangers and replaced them with luggage racks and space for skis.

Will
Well: we're back and I'm able to report that on walking the length of both sleeper trains, I didn't find any bike storage space, as such, on either of them. I didn't explore Eurostar or the two German ICE trains we travelled in to Hamburg, asuming we know enough about those already.

The SJ train from Hamburg to Stockholm was particulary cramped. It was even hard to find space for two average suitcases in the three berth compartment shared by my wife and I - with NO third person. My case entirely filled the narrow gap between bunk and wall, so one had to step over it to get out. Panniers would at least slide under the bottom bunk, but what to do with a bike? Maybe, if one came equipped with hooks and ropes, it might be possible to suspend a bike from the high level luggage racks and then creep about underneath it, but two bikes? And I can't see how one would then access the upper bunk.

None of the Vy rolling stock gave any indication of ever having space for bikes, unless you count the ski cupboards at each end (or was it only one end?) of each couchette carriage. I asked a member of staff if summer travellers put bicycles in those, but they didn't think so, pointing out that there was no provision to hang by the front wheel, which is the only way to fit one or two bikes - maybe three at a pinch - in there. Again, I think you could do something with rope, or the ubiquitous for-everything-but... toestraps. The sleeping compartments were slightly more generous (or maybe had narrower beds). Whatever, I could squeeze between the bunk and my suitcase.

As for the journeys, I'd say they were interesting. Six days before the off I got the following text from SJ:
Hi! Your EuroNight train 346 2024-03-04 (JMZ5338J) has a new departure station; Hamburg Bergedorf station, due to track maintenance. The train will stop in Hamburg Hbf. Departure time for train 346 from Hamburg Bergedorf is 21:34. To get to Hamburg Bergedorf we refer you to S-Bahn from Hamburg Hbf.
This was followed by two more texts, first about how our sleeper car number had changed - no problem - and second about how the train
has a new carriage constellation without your sleeping car. We have reserved you a new couchette compartment 91-96 in carriage 22. Toilet is available in the end of your carriage. You will automatically be compensated 25% of the ticket price.
As the only toilet facilities in our booked second-class sleeper was a washbasin, WC being likewise down the corridor, the only thing concerning us about this change was the prospect of sharing with four others and as Helen had by then developed a bad cough, whether any of us would sleep!

Fortunately we had three or four hours in Hamburg, so I worked out where Bergedorf was and that we could easily get there on the S-bahn. But as the dining and time-killing opportunities looked much better around the Hauptbahnhof and as the train was supposed to be calling there anyway... I wasn't planning to schlep ourselves out to the bare and probably windswept platforms of Bergedorf. So we dined at a pub called Nagel (which I recommend, plus their own-brewed dark lager), as slowly as we reasonably could, then wandered back to the Hbf, where the information office was now less busy, so we thought it would be a good idea to make double sure that EN346 would be picking up there and exactly when. Fortunately (after saying yes of course it does) our informer checked for changes in the day's running order (or whatever it should be called) and could not find our train at all - except at Bergedorf. So off we went on the S-bahn, in 20 minutes leaving still another hour to wait, on a platform that was swept by a damp wind that chilled to the bone. Helen's cough was getting worse so we retreated to a kebab shop for coffee, returning to find a lot more people on the platform including some cheerful SJ train staff who checked a list and assured us that the last text was rubbish and we would get identical accommodation to that we'd booked. And so we did - but nevertheless received a 25% compensation payment from SJ! As for stopping at the Hbf to pick up... we shunted to and fro around Hamburg for at least an hour without stopping at any other Bahnhof as far as I could tell - never mind a Hauptbahnhof, so we were very glad we went to Bergedorf!

We were also glad to have a sightseeing day between trains, or what remains of a day after rolling in at nearer twelve than ten! Because Helen's cough was now worse, so the main sight we saw was the inside of a clinic where they very thoroughly, professionally and slowly diagnosed pneumonia, before prescribing the antibiotics she so obviously needed. There was just time for a very belated lunch-cum-dinner before boarding Vy Nattåg 94 at 18:08 for Abisko. Except it wasn't going all the way to Abisko. The inconvenient alteration to this service involved checking out of our sleeping accommodation at 05:30 and changing to an ordinary train with seats (and a sadly diminshed meals service) for the final six hours. Fortunately I'd guessed that the sleeper bistro's interesting choice of arctic-inspired meals might not be replicated on the other train and already stocked up with reindeer and moose salami snacks, plus porridge with lingen-berry sauce - that only needed hot water to serve.

The reason our sleeper didn't go all the way is that in December an iron-ore train derailed and tore up several hundred metres of track, somewhere between Abisko and Narvik. Throughout Jan and Feb Vy's website promised to reopen the line soon, but when it did re-open it was only to goods trains, passenger service being considered too risky on mended track that cannot be properly inspected when everything's covered in snow. Good decision: another ore train derailed (less destructively) a couple of weeks after re-opening. Sleeper carriages can't be turned around without a good deal of cleaning and provisioning, services that are available only at major stations, so with Narvik inaccessible, from Boden our empty carriages were sent to Lulea.

When the line closed in December, Vy immediately stopped selling tickets on that route and ran replacement buses for those who'd already got tickets, between Narvik and Bjorklijden - the next station beyond Abisko and as far as passenger trains could go. So we got to our base for the first three nights okay, but as I hadn't bought tickets already before the 17th December, we had no obvious way of reaching Narvik and our flight home. For this is wild and empty country with no public transport apart from the railway (that takes a completely different route than the road) on the Norwegian side of the border. An infrequent bus to a ski resort near the border, then a very expensive taxi to Narvik looked like our least bad option, until Helen found on Facebook a guy in Abisko who drives day trips to "The Norwegian Fjords" and was happy to take us one way for some cash in hand. More cash than the train fare, and I doubt we will ever see that most scenic section of the Arctic Circle Railway, but our broken transport chain was mended.

Apparently Vy are now selling tickets for their replacement bus service. So it's taken them three months to get their act together, but public transport between Kiruna and Narvik is restored.

The flight home wasn't exactly what I'd planned either. To have time for breakfast then catch a bus for the long drive to Narvik airport (which is at Evenes on the opposite side of the fjord, some 80km around by road) I'd booked an afternoon flight, with a sensible 3 hour connection in Oslo to arrive in Manchester that evening. But then SAS bumped us onto the morning flight, so we had to get up awfully early and miss breakfast to catch a bus at 6am (they're very infrequent) then spend a boringly long 6 hours in Oslo airport before our Manchester flight. Fortunately, when I explained this to the woman controlling entry to the SAS Lounge at Oslo, she surreptitiously let us in, so most of those hours were spent very comfortably with free food and drink.
by CJ
19 Mar 2024, 5:48pm
Forum: Electrically assisted pedal cycles
Topic: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping
Replies: 68
Views: 9178

Re: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping

cycleruk wrote: 19 Mar 2024, 5:21pm Have to go back down and start again. :mrgreen:
Is NOT even funny.
by CJ
19 Mar 2024, 3:58pm
Forum: Electrically assisted pedal cycles
Topic: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping
Replies: 68
Views: 9178

Re: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping

cycleruk wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 9:37am I don't have E-assist. But my technique for steep hill starting is to start at 90 degrees to the hill. Point the bike across the road, one foot on a pedal, and this usually gives time for lifting the other foot while setting off.
Obviously this depends on practical issues. Is the road wide enough, no traffic, etc'.
Mine too. I find that a key advantage and refinement of this technique - on hills steep enough to want it - is to place the bike so one's on-road foot is up-slope, for that enables one to start in the saddle already!

Unfortunately this technique is of no use to someone whose hill-start problem is a fear of falling at low speed. For sharp turns up into a steep slope are also off their agenda - especially within a moment of starting!
by CJ
19 Mar 2024, 11:23am
Forum: Electrically assisted pedal cycles
Topic: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping
Replies: 68
Views: 9178

Re: Hill Starts - E-assist not helping

jrs665 wrote: 2 Mar 2024, 5:15pm
CJ wrote: 15 Aug 2023, 4:52pm So does anyone know if it's possible to add such a feature to a Ribble E-road bike equipped with the Mahle hub?
Had a ribble Endurance ALe with a rear mahle x.35 hub motor.

Had no issues atall moving off with it. Moving off was the only time you noticed the power as a nice seamless powerful boost to your pedaling. When you hit 15.5 mph , you didnt even notice it cutting out as so smooth or the motor re-engaging when you dropped below 15.5 mph.

If you decreased the leveloff of assistance when riding though you reaslise how much help you were getting without realising it, the delivery being so smooth.

Moving off on a steep hill with full assist wasn't much different from moving off on the flat with a lower assist level.
That is exactly the same bike and hub-motor used by that other cyclist, my friend Dave, referred to in the full quote below. It doesn't help him get started except on moderate hills. But we live and ride in the Peak District: 'nuff said!
I know another cyclist who's lately got an E-bike - that gets him up the hills but doesn't get him started. He's a very strong rider on the flat (we all tuck in behind when Dave gets rolling!), but that's all thanks to his left leg. His right leg has nerve-damage and isn't sufficiently strong or controllable to push the pedal down for a hill start, or to stand on while his left leg does that. So he points the bike down the hill and does a U-turn. Not easy on any road, very tricky on a steep hill and possible only if the road is wide enough, which most steep hills aren't! A starter button is exactly what Dave needs and if E-bikes are supposed to help less able cyclists, I think he should be allowed to have one. So does anyone know if it's possible to add such a feature to a Ribble E-road bike equipped with the Mahle hub?
by CJ
24 Feb 2024, 3:24pm
Forum: Using the Forum - request help : report difficulties
Topic: Image display size
Replies: 23
Views: 6221

Re: Image display size

admin wrote: 15 Feb 2024, 10:24am The image displayed inline with the text is a "thumbnail" preview.

It's sized so it doesn't take up too much screen space, but is big enough to see what the image shows.

Click on the thumbnail image to see the full-size original.
Thanks, I've been using this forum since 2007 and never realised that. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

I'm afraid the little arrow changing to a little hand was too subtle for me. If the border of the image changed to blue, or if the arrow changed to a little plus magnifying glass, like when you mouse-over images on eBay, I would've got it.

I'm biased of course, but don't think I'm especially stupid. I'll wager lots of other people using this forum don't realise those images are thumbnails that get bigger if clicked. And if they do realise that, they may nevertheless get caught by how the full-size image must be closed with the back arrow, else the whole forum is gone and one has to start all over! The way this forum opens links in the same window often catches me out. None of the other sites I regularly use work like that.
by CJ
21 Feb 2024, 6:14pm
Forum: Touring & Expedition
Topic: Best Ortlieb Rear Panniers for touring?
Replies: 92
Views: 7584

Re: Best Ortlieb Rear Panniers for touring?

Bmblbzzz wrote: 21 Feb 2024, 3:19pm...Arkels have a hundred and one compartments, each designed for a specific purpose.
And none of them the least bit waterproof! So my tools, that I'd stashed in the dedicated tool pocket, got quite rusty when I tested these panniers for the CTC magazine on a rainy tour in Brittany!

Before you chip in with plastic bags: I think the point of lots of pockets is convenient access to stuff, and wrapping stuff in further little bags defeats that aim. And besides: tools have hard corners that wear holes in polythene as one jiggles along the "rocky roadsteads of this parish"!
by CJ
20 Feb 2024, 6:11pm
Forum: Touring & Expedition
Topic: Best Ortlieb Rear Panniers for touring?
Replies: 92
Views: 7584

Re: Best Ortlieb Rear Panniers for touring?

pjclinch wrote: 15 Feb 2024, 4:29pm That they're waterproof is good but not as important as often made out. You still need liners inside for a lot of touring because if you put a wet tent or jacket in the waterproofing just keeps the water in...
And that's why I prefer the Packers. A wet jacket goes under the flap, NOT in with the contents. And when I've camped in the past, I never wanted to put a tent in a pannier, wet or dry. All tents come in their own drawstring bag already, don't need keeping out of the rain when packed and are a very big bundle to have to find pannier space for, so I always simply strapped the tent on top of the rack.

As for the pre-camp supermarket food shopping: that gets packed into a lightweight nylon backpack at the checkout, which is also strapped on top of the load with bungies, for the final few miles of the day. It might not look very neat, but who cares?
by CJ
16 Feb 2024, 7:35pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: How straight does a frame been to be?
Replies: 59
Views: 3592

Re: How straight does a frame been to be?

pjclinch wrote: 16 Feb 2024, 12:14pm The first time I rode a Kettwiesel trike with only a right-hand driven wheel was on a heavily cambered road. I spent several minutes drifting in to the kerb.
That's correctly designed for its home market, driving and riding on the right, where the lower wheel helps to drive the machine back up the camber, couter-acting the effects of gravity, trail and tilt upon the steering. For the same reason most traditional British tricycles drove the left wheel only. Riders who took their English 'barrow' on the 'continong' came back with arm-ache from the constant steering torque required to keep out of the ditch!
by CJ
15 Feb 2024, 9:38am
Forum: Touring & Expedition
Topic: Best Ortlieb Rear Panniers for touring?
Replies: 92
Views: 7584

Re: Best Ortlieb Rear Panniers for touring?

cjs wrote: 31 Aug 2014, 8:31pm I use the lid space to pop in daily purchases, coats etc and keep them separate from the main compartments. If its looking showery at the start of a day I load my waterproofs under one lid for quick withdrawal and return. Perfect for when they may be damp when put away....
And THAT's the decisive advantage of Packers over Rollers for touring IMHO: versatility and convenience.

For even more versatility I highly recommend adding Ortlieb's optional external pockets. It's a somewhat scary d.i.y. job to punch holes in the bag and fit the attachment brackets, but I can attest that done right, the bag remains 100% waterproof. And it's so handy not to have to open up and fish around inside a pannier for: tools, a cafe lock, sunscreen, first-aid kit... all those things you'd like to have in the handlebar bag, except they don't need to come into the shop with you and besides, the bar-bag is already full of things that are too valuable to leave outside and might get damaged by tools etc. jangling around them when you ride.
by CJ
14 Feb 2024, 8:59pm
Forum: Using the Forum - request help : report difficulties
Topic: Image display size
Replies: 23
Views: 6221

Re: Image display size

Audax67 wrote: 16 Jan 2023, 5:01pm By way of a test, here's a pano hosted on my Pbase account and referenced via a link:

Image

Resized the same as uploaded pics.
That's not the same size, it's considerably wider and must have more pixels in total than any of those uploaded, rather than linked, by MickF.

It's my observation that images linked from other sites, such as Flickr, do display bigger here. But that's no help for those without anywhere else to upload and display their images. They're stuck with the pokey little postcard-sized upload limit.

I decided to test whether downsampling to fewer pixels and more jpg compression helps at all. It doesn't :(
AColina.jpg
Original 1.69Mb image
AColina1024.jpg
Downsampled and compressed 255Kb image

Although only 255Kb, the second image is nevertheless 1024 pixels wide and at 100% displays twice as wide as the fuzzy 'postcard' above, with enough detail to read WHISKY in white on the end of the fork.

Surely 255Kb is not too big a file to display on our site without further degradation?
by CJ
10 Feb 2024, 2:39pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: How straight does a frame been to be?
Replies: 59
Views: 3592

Re: How straight does a frame been to be?

Brucey wrote: 9 Feb 2024, 3:32pm in my dictionary it says 'caster -person or thing that casts'

are you sure you don't mean 'castor' ?
(Although that is how Americans tend to spell it, bless 'em.....)
Sorry, maybe I've been corresponding too much lately with Americans!

My Concise Oxford Dictionary nevertheless lists '1 var. of CASTOR' as the most familiar and important meaning of 'caster' - and without any (US) indication that it's a purely or mainly American variant. Person who casts and machine for casting type come in at 2 and 3 respectively. So I think most people will get it.