Ban Politics from the forum

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

Politics Too Contentious, Time to Stop!

Poll ended at 9 Dec 2016, 8:33am

No more political threads
9
50%
Politics behind a closed door, opt in only, largely unmoderated
9
50%
 
Total votes: 18

jgurney
Posts: 1214
Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by jgurney »

PDQ Mobile wrote:We are a little less difficult than deliberately influencing the weather or ocean currents methinks!


I'd say the opposite - the weather and ocean currents are bound by mechanical laws, although the operation of those laws is so complex as to be practically impossible to predict sufficiently well to manipulate. People, however, are capable of making quite unpredictable decisions and so their actions are even more difficult to forecast.

So a random choice gives a divided result? I guess so.


Necessarily. If there really are only two possible outcomes and the process is random, over a large enough number of events the numbers of each outcome will approach 50/50. E.g. tossing a coin many times will generate approx 50% heads and 50% tails.

In elections, votes guided by ideology, sectional interests or clear benefits will be non-random. However where a voter is trying to assess the relative benefits of two possible courses where the factors involved become too complex to realistically make a judgement (such as complex technicalities of economic policy) I suspect the outcomes do approach being random.
In elections there are of course actually at least three options - to vote either way if two candidates/choices, and to not vote.

However the choice does become random if it is not well understood or is too complex, time consuming and confusing to understand?


Exactly. A society with fewer ideological divisions (due to a strong social consensus) and less sectarianism (again, strong consensus) is more likely to be left with such problems.

"Too complex to be calculable" Or perhaps better said; made too complex to be calculable.


Just by their nature too complex. E.g. the possible repercussions of the UK leaving or remaining in the EU are extremely wide-ranging, not because anyone made them so on purpose but because it could potentially affect a lot of things.

The people who write alternative history have great fun suggesting all sorts of wide-reaching possible outcomes had various events gone differently. I read one speculating what might have happened if the upper Thames had not cut through the chalk at Goring but formed a lake to the south-west of Oxford and then joined the upper reaches of the Ouse, leaving a much smaller river, really a continuation of the Kennet, flowing roughly where the lower Thames does and forming a much smaller estuary. Would London still have developed, on a smaller river less passable to shipping? Would the capital being located in York or Winchester have led to various wars having different outcomes?
User avatar
ChrisOntLancs
Posts: 527
Joined: 20 Oct 2016, 9:47pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by ChrisOntLancs »

mjr wrote: but personally I feel there's not a great deal of point continually trying to interact with extremists at either end who are doing the written equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and refusing to consider any other views while vomitting bile and lies onto the pages.


so don't! if it's less stressful to ride your bike, go do that.

this ignorance can't be tied to one particular belief.

i feel sorry for brexiters, i don't agree with them, and i do see a lot of obtuse frustration, but i look on the remain side sometimes and the only difference is ability in vocabulary (i wouldn't respond if i thought this was you, for reasons below)

and so what if people on either side are like that? the worlds a bleak place and it doesn't surprise me that somebody should want to vent their frustration by saying '**** whoever', before storming off and going doing something else. it's up to the reader to decide whether they want to or even should respond.

maybe the problem is that people keep responding.... but again... why wouldn't they?
pwa
Posts: 17428
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by pwa »

As a pro-Brexit forumer I am used to exchanging views with Remainers, but I never really expect to persuade anyone. At best I hope to explain my own standpoint so that others can see where I am coming from even if they disagree. And that is how we should approach political discussion on this forum. None of us are going to "win". But we can make our side more intelligible to the other side. I think there is a value in that.
blackbike
Posts: 2492
Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by blackbike »

ChrisOntLancs wrote:
mjr wrote: but personally I feel there's not a great deal of point continually trying to interact with extremists at either end who are doing the written equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and refusing to consider any other views while vomitting bile and lies onto the pages.


so don't! if it's less stressful to ride your bike, go do that.

this ignorance can't be tied to one particular belief.

i feel sorry for brexiters, i don't agree with them, and i do see a lot of obtuse frustration, but i look on the remain side sometimes and the only difference is ability in vocabulary (i wouldn't respond if i thought this was you, for reasons below)

and so what if people on either side are like that? the worlds a bleak place and it doesn't surprise me that somebody should want to vent their frustration by saying '**** whoever', before storming off and going doing something else. it's up to the reader to decide whether they want to or even should respond.

maybe the problem is that people keep responding.... but again... why wouldn't they?


The world isn't a bleak place. It's quite good, and made better by Brexit.

Perhaps the most surprising thing about our decision to leave the EU is the reaction from some losers.

They've despaired of democracy, warned of impending totalitarianism, told us of their low opinion of many of their fellow Brits and predicted all sorts of social and financial catastrophes.

All this just because we've decided to end some international agreements which only go back 43 years, and only about 15 years in their current form.

This overreaction and lack of proportion and perspective shows that to these people EU membership has ceased to be just a set of treaties and contracts and has become an ideological obsession, a cult, almost a religion.

Thank goodness we have been alerted to the unhealthy behaviour of this minority of Remain voters, and freed them and ourselves from the object of their uncritical adoration.
Psamathe
Posts: 17728
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by Psamathe »

blackbike wrote:...
I'm baffled as to why so many remainers think Brexit would be any different, though I suspect they didn't but are just pretending they are amazed and appalled at the usual slow progress in a feeble and unconvincing attempt to persuade everyone that things are not progressing in a completely normal manner....

It's not the slow progress that is so amazing (I think people see it in terms of at least people are not knee jerking and on TV it seems to be mainly Leave voters who are demanding we "just leave now, just get on with it."). What is so amazing is how the Leave campaign (MPs, ministers, etc) really didn't seem to have any idea about what Leave actually meant (e.g. Leave the EU or leave the EU and EEU, or just stop Freedom of Movement, etc.). Also amazing how unaware it seems they were of the process and rules.
e.g.
David Davies (July 2016): I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. Trade deals with the US and China alone will give us a trade area almost twice the size of the EU, and of course we will also be seeking deals with Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – and many others.

He seemed totally unaware of the rules about EU member states negotiating trade deals.

Ian
blackbike
Posts: 2492
Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by blackbike »

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:...
I'm baffled as to why so many remainers think Brexit would be any different, though I suspect they didn't but are just pretending they are amazed and appalled at the usual slow progress in a feeble and unconvincing attempt to persuade everyone that things are not progressing in a completely normal manner....

It's not the slow progress that is so amazing (I think people see it in terms of at least people are not knee jerking and on TV it seems to be mainly Leave voters who are demanding we "just leave now, just get on with it."). What is so amazing is how the Leave campaign (MPs, ministers, etc) really didn't seem to have any idea about what Leave actually meant (e.g. Leave the EU or leave the EU and EEU, or just stop Freedom of Movement, etc.). Also amazing how unaware it seems they were of the process and rules.
e.g.
David Davies (July 2016): I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. Trade deals with the US and China alone will give us a trade area almost twice the size of the EU, and of course we will also be seeking deals with Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – and many others.

He seemed totally unaware of the rules about EU member states negotiating trade deals.

Ian


EU rules don't matter. Like all rules between countries they can be broken whenever a country wants to do so. And EU rules matter even less when you are leaving it.

Brexit progress is entirely normal. If anything it is going better than I expected as I knew it would be a lengthy process but I didn't think the EU's leaders and bureaucrats would be so daft as to make so many angry and unhelpful remarks, most of which show the EU in a bad, bitter, selfish and obstructive light and show just how sensible the Great British electorate were to decide to get out.
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

A thread which has gone COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC

Post by 661-Pete »

My 'adjustment' of the thread title says it all, really.
People have chosen to descend to an entirely political argument. That is not what the thread was started for.
In many cases I'd say, it doesn't matter. But the whole point of the thread is - just this.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20720
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by Vorpal »

blackbike wrote:EU rules don't matter. Like all rules between countries they can be broken whenever a country wants to do so. And EU rules matter even less when you are leaving it.

EU rules do matter, and for several reasons:
-our potential trading partners either are in the EU, or trade with the EU
-if we break one set of rules, can we be trusted to follow other sets of rules?
-it's one more thing for the EU to include in negotiations

Do they matter enough to follow them? Probably not, but I don't think it is reasonable to dismiss them out of hand.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
User avatar
ChrisOntLancs
Posts: 527
Joined: 20 Oct 2016, 9:47pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by ChrisOntLancs »

blackbike wrote: and made better by Brexit.


time will tell. personally, i have no idea. i don't believe either side, and gauge my expectations on that. if you've read animal farm, i'm that sulking donkey. i hope brexiters don't fall into the usual traps of dissenters though (becoming the thing they set out to destroy mainly, failing to hold their leaders to account being second).

blackbike wrote:This overreaction and lack of proportion and perspective shows that to these people EU membership has ceased to be just a set of treaties and contracts and has become an ideological obsession, a cult, almost a religion.


i sort of agree with that, but i see it everywhere. people can be so committed to their own cause they alienate anybody with a shred of doubt. all the respective leaders are infallible now and that's really unhealthy for a democracy. people should put the politicians that they favour under more scrutiny than the ones they don't, because they've already ruled the latter out.

i just think it's an extension of divide and rule, and i find it hard to disagree with either yourself or mrj on these 'blah blah blah not listening' attitudes. with mrj i was disagreeing about something else though, since mrj is better at staying on topic than me.
pwa
Posts: 17428
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:
blackbike wrote:EU rules don't matter. Like all rules between countries they can be broken whenever a country wants to do so. And EU rules matter even less when you are leaving it.

EU rules do matter, and for several reasons:
-our potential trading partners either are in the EU, or trade with the EU
-if we break one set of rules, can we be trusted to follow other sets of rules?
-it's one more thing for the EU to include in negotiations

Do they matter enough to follow them? Probably not, but I don't think it is reasonable to dismiss them out of hand.


It seems to me that the EU's whole process for a member state leaving is Not Fit For Purpose, possibly to the point of being a deterrent.
Psamathe
Posts: 17728
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: A thread which has gone COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC

Post by Psamathe »

661-Pete wrote:My 'adjustment' of the thread title says it all, really.
People have chosen to descend to an entirely political argument. That is not what the thread was started for.
In many cases I'd say, it doesn't matter. But the whole point of the thread is - just this.

But isn't that the nature of "The Tea shop" (and most other chats about things). Even a specific question thread once the question has been answered will drift off topic as people discuss "related" issues which then drift to other "related" issues and it isn't long before the thread has gone off-topic.

In many ways thread drift can be preferable to starting a new thread for everything, particularly when others are finding it difficult to avoid the political threads. Re-use an existing thread saves the current affairs threads swamping the forum. To my mind not a massive issue particularly when the original discussion has pretty well run it's course.

Ian
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20337
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by mjr »

blackbike wrote:I'm baffled as to why so many remainers think Brexit would be any different, [...]

Stop telling other people what they think. You don't seem to understand them, nor do you accurately report the views of any people on here. Find any Remainer on here who said Brexit would be quick (it was one thing that lots of us were warning everyone about, even contradicting Call Me Dave about it, and definitely contradicting Vote Leave) or find any Remainer who uncritically admires the EU (lots of us point out the need for reform, but feel we'll have more influence over reforms as a member than not).

ChrisOntLancs wrote:with mrj i was disagreeing about something else though, since mrj is better at staying on topic than me.

I'm also better at spelling other people's usernames ;-)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
User avatar
ChrisOntLancs
Posts: 527
Joined: 20 Oct 2016, 9:47pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by ChrisOntLancs »

:oops:

sorry about that, even more so if the 'mr' made me mistake your gender too :oops:
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4664
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Ban Politics from the forum

Post by PDQ Mobile »

jgurney wrote:

Necessarily. If there really are only two possible outcomes and the process is random, over a large enough number of events the numbers of each outcome will approach 50/50. E.g. tossing a coin many times will generate approx 50% heads and 50% tails.

In elections, votes guided by ideology, sectional interests or clear benefits will be non-random. However where a voter is trying to assess the relative benefits of two possible courses where the factors involved become too complex to realistically make a judgement (such as complex technicalities of economic policy) I suspect the outcomes do approach being random.

Please excuse partial quote, it's just to show to whom my reply is directed.
Thank you for your interesting thoughts.

I am as bad as anyone for thread drift but the Thames cutting the Goring Gap is pretty drifted!!
I mean the Rhine once flowed out of the Straight of Dover( relatively recently) and the Dee once flowed into the Severn.
But I digress!!!

I am interested in the reason for the present dichotomy in our society, for it seems to me to be more pronounced than earlier.

I don't for one moment agree that it is as easy to deliberately influence the weather or ocean currents as it is to influence the voting intentions of a group of people - history is full of examples of that having been done (the people that is).
I can think of better reasons for the outcomes of the last 2 great human conflicts than a different river course!

Moving on.

Quote:-
"Exactly. A society with fewer ideological divisions (due to a strong social consensus) and less sectarianism (again, strong consensus) is more likely to be left with such problems. "

So a society with, for example, strong religious convictions will be less easy to influence? Makes sense; and a society such as ours, with little, will be very open to being easily influenced?

Quote:- "In elections there are of course actually at least three options - to vote either way if two candidates/choices, and to not vote."

I don't feel abstentions are relevant to my puzzlement about polarization of so many recent results. The polarization is between those that voted.

So if I might speculate. I agree that if there are only two possible outcomes and the process is random then the result is likely to be close to 50/50.
But by the same logic with only the very, very slightest of influence in a particular direction i.e. the process is not quite random, the result is easily manipulable.

So now that very slight influence/prejudice hidden in amongst all the information, statistics, nuance etc becomes a tool of very considerable power.



A man like Mr Murdoch can say " the Sun has never lost an election".
And he wants control of Sky!
Dammit thread drift again!!
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Ban politics over xmas 'til the new year?

Post by mercalia »

Ban politics over xmas 'til the new year?
Post Reply