Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Germany recruited many labourers from Turkey, Portugal and elsewhere. The plan was to let them go home after a few years. But after a while they settled, had children, some married local people. So the immigrants and even more their children were soon more at home in Germany.

The same with the Poles in Britain, I think it is great that they stay and integrate. In many cases the children are brought up with two languages and two cultures. That is a great enrichment for them and for society. I was born long after WW2 but we heard such a lot about the conflict and how Churchill and others had the dream of binding France and Germany and the other nations together.

UK citizens who had lived elsewhere in the EU for more than 15 years were not allowed to vote in the referendum. They could have easily swung the result.

But many of them are at home in two (or more) cultures and languages. That is a great enrichment that cannot be measured in $$$. And most of them have plenty to eat.
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 9 Jan 2017, 6:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pete75
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by pete75 »

blackbike wrote:
Common human decency is not relevant to Brexit.


Hopefully It's relevant to everything this country decides to do concerning people, outside of war and even in certain aspects of that it is relevant otherwise there wouldn't be things like the Geneva Convention.
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blackbike
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by blackbike »

pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:
Common human decency is not relevant to Brexit.


Hopefully It's relevant to everything this country decides to do concerning people, outside of war and even in certain aspects of that it is relevant otherwise there wouldn't be things like the Geneva Convention.




I'll be delighted when we have left the EU and we can be as decent to EU people as we are to non-EU people in regard to their rights to live and work here.

Our current arrangements are clearly linked to EU membership, and when it ends those arrangements should end too if our government decides that it what it wants.

Then, like most independent countries in the world, and the EU itself, we can choose all our own immigration rules.
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bovlomov
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by bovlomov »

blackbike wrote:That's the third time you have told me that. You obviously think it is a particularly clever point to make.

It's not clever, it's self-evident. Anyone who can glibly dismiss the deportation and break up of thousands of families with "so be it" clearly doesn't understand human relationships.

It seemed fairly obvious to me leaving the EU would mean that EU people would not have the right to live and work here, just as non-EU people already don't. That's because they only have that right because we are in the EU.Not everything has to be spelled out to intelligent and politically aware people like those who voted Leave.

Boris - the most prominent Brexit campaigner - doesn't agree with you.
Mr Johnson teamed up with shadow home secretary Andy Burnham to criticise the Government's position, insisting it was "very disappointing" that the status of EU nationals has been called into question.
Clearly you don't speak for all (or any?) other Brexit voters.

As a Leave voter you should listen to what I say. I'm in touch with the people. I understand them.
No - you have only demonstrated that you understand that one number is more than another number - not that you understand the people who voted, or their reasons.
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by blackbike »

Human behaviour is richly diverse and I celebrate that as a modern, diversity celebrating type.

I wouldn't dream of describing one sort of behaviour as normal. I'm far too broad-minded, tolerant and sophisticated for that. Who am I to declare my behaviour normal, so implying that others behave abnormally? That wouldn't be polite at all. No, human normality is a broad church and I welcome everyone to it.

People from EU countries who currently live and work here have always known that their right to do so depends entirely on the UK's EU membership.

It naturally and legally follows that the right ends when our EU membership ends.

Who can complain about that, especially as the decision to leave the EU was a democratic one, taken after a full and open debate about the matter, a triumph of the democratic process which should make us all proud to be British.

If some EU nationals don't want to go to an EU country if that's what is expected of them when we exit the bloc, then as a compassionate and caring person I think our government should listen to their concerns. If there are any human rights reasons why they can't go back to an EU country then perhaps we could let them stay. As far as I'm aware there are no such concerns at the moment, but you never know with Europe given its relatively recent adoption of democracy and its record of fascism, communism and their associated genocides within living memory.
landsurfer
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by landsurfer »

moderated response to deleted posts

... the remain group in society....
They tell people that voted differently from them that they are stupid, made a mistake ... and many other negative attacks .
They demand another referendum until the "right" result is posted ...
I'm not sure if the press even reported these statements truthfully .... ?? :roll: ??
But the division as a result of not accepting the result is naked in it's aggression.
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bovlomov
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by bovlomov »

blackbike wrote:Human behaviour is richly diverse and I celebrate that as a modern, diversity celebrating type.

Do you celebrate cruelty? Dishonesty? Theft? These are all part of any diverse society - but we needn't celebrate them.

I wouldn't dream of describing one sort of behaviour as normal. I'm far too broad-minded, tolerant and sophisticated for that. Who am I to declare my behaviour normal, so implying that others behave abnormally? That wouldn't be polite at all. No, human normality is a broad church and I welcome everyone to it.

It is normal for humans to experience empathy - even if it could be argued that it contains a certain amount of self-interest.

People from EU countries who currently live and work here have always known that their right to do so depends entirely on the UK's EU membership.

Their unborn children didn't know.

On matters of much more doubtful legality and morality - evicting Illegal settlers from the occupied territories, or Turks from former Greek owned properties in Northern Cyprus, would damage families and destroy communities. Whatever you think of their right to remain, that harm should not be ignored or dismissed as unimportant.

It naturally and legally follows that the right ends when our EU membership ends.
I think the legality might not be so clear. The right to family life might be relevant, for example.

Aside from Boris not agreeing with you, even Daniel Hannan (Tory Eurosceptic MEP) thought that “free movement of workers to and from the UK should continue to ensure Britain remained within the single market”.

So, you see, it wasn't at all obvious what would happen, and there's no reason to think that your views are typical among Leave voters.
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

blackbike wrote:Human behaviour is richly diverse and I celebrate that as a modern, diversity celebrating type.

I wouldn't dream of describing one sort of behaviour as normal. I'm far too broad-minded, tolerant and sophisticated for that. Who am I to declare my behaviour normal, so implying that others behave abnormally? That wouldn't be polite at all. No, human normality is a broad church and I welcome everyone to it.

People from EU countries who currently live and work here have always known that their right to do so depends entirely on the UK's EU membership.

It naturally and legally follows that the right ends when our EU membership ends.

Who can complain about that, especially as the decision to leave the EU was a democratic one, taken after a full and open debate about the matter, a triumph of the democratic process which should make us all proud to be British.

If some EU nationals don't want to go to an EU country if that's what is expected of them when we exit the bloc, then as a compassionate and caring person I think our government should listen to their concerns. If there are any human rights reasons why they can't go back to an EU country then perhaps we could let them stay. As far as I'm aware there are no such concerns at the moment, but you never know with Europe given its relatively recent adoption of democracy and its record of fascism, communism and their associated genocides within living memory.

Such an self-centered post. It's all about justifing your position.And you suggest the Remain side have taken a higher moral stance!!

I have seen what you have posted on here through all these debates and I think you are a foreigner disliking person with an axe to grind.

Broadminded and tolerant hardly.IMHO.

(If I may now make a guess at your profession from an earlier thread? Are you David Sarkey? For you share many of his views.)

Democratic vote swayed by lies told by strange dark interests like the Daily Mail and Murdoch. Powerful. The rampant right.

That they have no interest in true democracy or benefitting ordinary people is quite clear.

This Govt. is the worst Govt of my long lifetime.

They introduced an austerity policy upon backs of the ordinary working folks, the poorer sections, the disabled, the old, in the name of bringing our "National Finances" back into better shape after 2008. Now proven to be utter tosh. But the Bankers got bailed out.

We now have greater personal debt than in 2008, an underfunded Health service just described as a humanitarian disaster, a currency worth 30% less, a Brexit policy that is, quite simply, a perfect model of "muddled thinking".

A once half decent railway system victim to the free market, grossly underfunded, run down, in chaos, the most expensive and dirty for many a mile, a laughing stock. (No pun intended)

A housing market massively slanted in favour of the wealthy and landlords, through failure to build and renovate.

Homelessness at record levels.

Wealth in the hands of a smaller percentage of the population.

For this Govt are dogmatic fools driven by their bankrupt and failed free market idealism. They have now brought ruin on this once decent country,.sowed division instead of understanding,

showed no compromise when so little compromise could have done so much good.

They see all this and they are terrified that when they next lose office (please, a decent opposition soon) they will be out for a very long time, such is the damage they have now inflicted.

Incompetance simply does not come near it.

And we should believe them that leaving the EU is a good idea?.

Those European people that came here to live and work from the EU. (( please dont start going on about the rest of the world being excluded from the EU by the EU again, I am bored by it)), came here perfectly legally.

We have as a Nation, by and large, benefited from their hard work, Tax revenues and cultural enrichening of our society. They have sent some of their hard earned money home to help their poorer economies, a good idea.

And now we turn around and say, on the basis of the twisted words of the Daily Mail" you have no stake here go home". Well not in my name.

A great many British people have done exactly the same in reverse.

The other side of he coin. They too are in limbo.

But I think they still feel pretty welcome in Europe, such is it's outward looking and tolerant attitude.

The EU has been a success in the furthering of International understanding, partly undermined by the conflicts in the Middle East.

UK Govts have been the cause of some of that and we have not played a full enough role in helping to resolve it.
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bovlomov
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by bovlomov »

landsurfer wrote:moderated response to deleted posts

... the remain group in society....
They tell people that voted differently from them that they are stupid, made a mistake ... and many other negative attacks .
They demand another referendum until the "right" result is posted ...
I'm not sure if the press even reported these statements truthfully .... ?? :roll: ??
But the division as a result of not accepting the result is naked in it's aggression.


The remain group aren't a group - just like the leave group aren't.

I wonder what you called remainers, that your post had to be moderated. Don't tell me, or you'll be moderated again. I'll guess.
landsurfer
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by landsurfer »

bovlomov wrote:
landsurfer wrote:moderated response to deleted posts

... the remain group in society....
They tell people that voted differently from them that they are stupid, made a mistake ... and many other negative attacks .
They demand another referendum until the "right" result is posted ...
I'm not sure if the press even reported these statements truthfully .... ?? :roll: ??
But the division as a result of not accepting the result is naked in it's aggression.


The remain group aren't a group - just like the leave group aren't.

I wonder what you called remainers, that your post had to be moderated. Don't tell me, or you'll be moderated again. I'll guess.


It wasn't my comments that where moderated .. it was "blackbikes " ... i quoted them ...
Not moderated with any skill i must say mods ...
I think you will find that the "leave " brigade do see themselves as a group .... " The Saviours of the Nation" and all that stuff ....
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bovlomov
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by bovlomov »

landsurfer wrote:It wasn't my comments that where moderated .. it was "blackbikes " ... i quoted them ...
Oh, I see.

I'm surprised, because Blackbike, whatever one thinks of his opinions, is usually admirably civil.
...on a personal level, I mean. About leftist and liberals in general, he's often less so.
landsurfer
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by landsurfer »

see my latest post ....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
landsurfer
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by landsurfer »

OH its disappeared ...... well it did have a reference to a passage in 1984 ....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
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661-Pete
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by 661-Pete »

I seem to have missed most of the mudslinging in this thread (there I go selfishly watching TV instead of devoting my mind to the more important matter of the CUK forum...!). Sorry about that.

Unlike another thread of a similar nature which has now been heavily moderated (and my post amongst several others).

Oh well - I'll say it again. We can't behave when 'politics' are being discussed. I feel sorry for the poor Mods. They must be suffering from intolerable stress and lack of sleep... :shock:
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bovlomov
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Re: Is this how things will be for non UK residents ?

Post by bovlomov »

661-Pete wrote:I seem to have missed most of the mudslinging in this thread (there I go selfishly watching TV instead of devoting my mind to the more important matter of the CUK forum...!). Sorry about that.

Unlike another thread of a similar nature which has now been heavily moderated (and my post amongst several others).

Oh well - I'll say it again. We can't behave when 'politics' are being discussed. I feel sorry for the poor Mods. They must be suffering from intolerable stress and lack of sleep... :shock:


David Cameron's fault! I wouldn't quite say he has created division where there was harmony, but the way the referendum was conceived, worded and conducted was guaranteed to polarise opinion - to the detriment of the whole nation. There were comparatively few people in the UK who had a rosy view of the EU, and few who hated it. Yet we are left with a country now so divided that it is hard to see how it will ever recover.

Part of a politician's job is about managing people, and in this the governments of Cameron and May have failed spectacularly. This nation has rarely been less at ease with itself, and I can't see anyone inside or outside Parliament with the wit and moral authority to save us*.

EDIT * Apart from the mods, of course.
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