Cycle Travel Question

[Bmblbzzz]

It's an interesting area - full of promise but difficult to get right!

A few car navigation apps are now letting their users report issues directly to OSM - Navmii, for example - but there's often a signal-to-noise problem: issues get logged on OSM which aren't actually a problem with the OSM data, but with the navigation app not parsing it correctly.

Or you can do what Mapbox do, which is log the issues internally (rather than on OSM) and then get your squadron of paid editors to make the corrections, but that can result in remote editors stomping on correct local data.

And then there's the new version of maps.me, which lets you edit a few things in OSM (mostly POIs) directly from the app. Pro: thousands more people are contributing to OSM overnight, which has to be good. Con: we've had people using it to persistently add Chinese translations to (say) Italian restaurants in Vienna which don't actually have Chinese names.

I'd very much like to do something along these lines, but without falling into any of those traps. I'm tending towards logging the issues externally (i.e. on cycle.travel rather than directly on OSM), but unlike what Mapbox do, making the list public so any OSMers can view it and fix the issues. Lots to think about...

(Incidentally, if you're not aware, you can now log an issue directly on openstreetmap.org without having to edit the data or indeed register; use the little speech bubble icon on the right. It helps if you do register, because then you've clicked the agreement that basically says "I'm not copying from Google Maps" - we can't guarantee that for unregistered users, so can't always take the reports on trust.)

Maybe for cycle.travel you could do something similar to the Mapbox approach but, within the UK, recruit volunteers -- after all, it is a free service to use -- who would investigate notified corrections local to them and confirm or deny them. Of course, this still relies on those volunteers agreeing with you, themselves and others, on some standardised assessment of surface conditions, and on the volume of corrections not exceeding the limits of their free time and energy. It might not be feasible, but if you think it is, I volunteer for my area!

[Bmblbzzz]

Like Richard, I've been experimenting with electronic route planning too, as I've used electronic maps + hub dynamo charger for my last couple of tours. There's a great Android map called maps.me from Germany, which allows offline browsing and can import routes, but those actual tracks were the problem. I've never been too convinced with autorouting and editing downloading GPX tracks is laborious at best.

So I've come up with a different approach. A interactive tool to plot routes, but which can cope with multi-day trips matched to an accommodation database of campsites & hostels. It's taken ages to put together but still got a few rough edges, but I'd appreciate some feedback if anyone fancies a go.

http://www.gobybike.co.uk

Thanks
Kevin

It's not working for me. The map zoom is unusable; either showing the whole of the British Isles or zooming in very close on random places. No user controllability. Windows 8.1, Opera.

[gloomyandy]

Like Richard, I've been experimenting with electronic route planning too, as I've used electronic maps + hub dynamo charger for my last couple of tours. There's a great Android map called maps.me from Germany, which allows offline browsing and can import routes, but those actual tracks were the problem. I've never been too convinced with autorouting and editing downloading GPX tracks is laborious at best.

So I've come up with a different approach. A interactive tool to plot routes, but which can cope with multi-day trips matched to an accommodation database of campsites & hostels. It's taken ages to put together but still got a few rough edges, but I'd appreciate some feedback if anyone fancies a go.

http://www.gobybike.co.uk

Thanks
Kevin

How is the panning of the map supposed to work? I don't seem to be able to pan the map with any sort of control. More often than not I end up drawing a random line on the map. Also there only seems to be one level of undo which when combined with the above panning results in random lines you can't get rid of. Is there a worked example (maybe a video) of how you would use it to plan a trip? I couldn't find one. Also I'm not a fan of sites that require registration for "all features" what am I missing by not registering? If it is simply not being able to save stuff then that is fine as I just want to try it out, but if other things don't work then I think you will fail to capture users like me.

Also I think you should really start a new thread for this. It seem unfair to hijack the original one which is about another (rival) site.

[Bicycler]

Maybe for cycle.travel you could do something similar to the Mapbox approach but, within the UK, recruit volunteers -- after all, it is a free service to use -- who would investigate notified corrections local to them and confirm or deny them. Of course, this still relies on those volunteers agreeing with you, themselves and others, on some standardised assessment of surface conditions, and on the volume of corrections not exceeding the limits of their free time and energy. It might not be feasible, but if you think it is, I volunteer for my area!

OSM already has its own guidance on surface condition: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
For the limited number of issues which would be raised by cycle.travel it would be easier just to have them added as map notes in osm where they can be checked by one of the local contributors.
IME Incorrect surface tagging is a much less frequent problem than no surface tagging. The best thing an eager local cyclist can do in this regard is add surface information to local paths open to cyclists, particularly - if short on time - those which differ from what routers will assume from the type of path egs. tarmacked tracks, paths and bridleways or unpaved cycleways.

[Psamathe]

Like Richard, I've been experimenting with electronic route planning too, as I've used electronic maps + hub dynamo charger for my last couple of tours. There's a great Android map called maps.me from Germany, which allows offline browsing and can import routes, but those actual tracks were the problem. I've never been too convinced with autorouting and editing downloading GPX tracks is laborious at best.

So I've come up with a different approach. A interactive tool to plot routes, but which can cope with multi-day trips matched to an accommodation database of campsites & hostels. It's taken ages to put together but still got a few rough edges, but I'd appreciate some feedback if anyone fancies a go.

http://www.gobybike.co.uk

Thanks
Kevin

I think the requirement to register before being able to do anything will discourage people (stopped me completely). Many worry about giving their e-mail address out due to the risks of subsequent unstoppable SPAM (which can and does happen - no reflection on gobybike). Perceived as an even greater risk when a professional looking site offering everything for free (i.e. where do they make their money .. you are the "product" ... and my e-mail address). Also, these days there is a big problem that when you register or create an account on something online, there is rarely an means to delete that registration/account.

Also, as an "unknown quantity" people will like to experiment a bit, check out how well it works and how easy it is before joining (just like people "lurk" before joining a forum).

My own thoughts are that if a site needs accounts/registrations more will be forthcoming if they provide a reasonable level of functionality to all (un-registered, no account, no details). Then for the extra stuff to require an account. e.g. anybody (unregistered, no details) can create a route on-screen (from A to B via C, D, E, etc., dragging/tweaking route, etc. - everything to visualise the route on-screen). But to save that route to pass it to other devices, etc. then require registration/accounts.

If income is sought through advertising you can record visits, unique visits, routes designed, etc. as well as accounts (I'd expect advertisers to be more interested in activity than number of accounts where many have not been used in years). If income is through having/using/selling e-mail addresses ... then that brings us to the SPAM problem.

etc.

Ian

[mjr]

It's not working for me. The map zoom is unusable; either showing the whole of the British Isles or zooming in very close on random places. No user controllability. Windows 8.1, Opera.

Similar experience for me. Firefox forty-something (latest) on debian 8. The 12 page table-of-contents for instructions that open when I click "Route" is rather off-putting.

[jochta]

It's not working for me. The map zoom is unusable; either showing the whole of the British Isles or zooming in very close on random places. No user controllability. Windows 8.1, Opera.

Similar experience for me. Firefox forty-something (latest) on debian 8. The 12 page table-of-contents for instructions that open when I click "Route" is rather off-putting.

Map panning doesn't work in Chrome on Mac.

[gobybike]

Thanks to everyone for the really useful feedback. Sorry to hear that the panning was causing problems for some people - fingers crossed it is fixed now.

To answer a few questions. It's not a commercial project, maybe one day. Gobybike is a limited company, but only because the Job Centre insisted on it for a New Enterprise Allowance grant, when my old College went bust and I was made redundant halfway through the teaching year. So I've also registered to comply with the Data Protection Act. I understand your fears about spam (I wish my students were as cautious,last week I got so carried away I ended up comparing Facebook to the Stasi )

Please feel free to play as much as you like - you only need an account to save and download. It also gives access to the User Profile, which allows some filtering & customisation. The e-mail address is requested so if you forget your password, you can reset it automatically. I didn't want people locked out sending me e-mails when I was away on tour!

Not sure of the etiquette (I've been a member for years, but mostly just a lurker on this board), but happy to start a new thread if the mods are happy for me to do so. Right at the beginning of this one, Richard suggested otherwise.

[gloomyandy]

with cycle.travel my routes all have the same name "cycle.travel" when I download them to a Garmin 520 using .tcx format. Is there a way to set the name of a route? Do I need to be logged in to do this? I really like what I've seen so far and will be testing the actual routes generated on the bike over the next few days.

[RickH]

with cycle.travel my routes all have the same name "cycle.travel" when I download them to a Garmin 520 using .tcx format. Is there a way to set the name of a route? Do I need to be logged in to do this? I really like what I've seen so far and will be testing the actual routes generated on the bike over the next few days.

If you save the route in Cycle.travel (you'll need to be registered) - go into "my [bicycle symbol]" > Journeys & make it private if you don't want the world to see it (it would be nice to have that as a save option ) - then the GPX/TCX you download will have that name.

Rick.

[gloomyandy]

So I've cycled for a couple of days "shakedown trip" using routes created by cycle.travel about 60 miles in total, on a mixture of roads and NCN routes. Very pleased with the route chosen. Only a couple of minor problems. The biggest was that it routed me to a dual carriageway from a side road. The route wanted me to turn right, but the junction was left turn only. I guess that is a mapping error? The other issue was that the route choice falls into the "Sustrans trap" of wanting to route you on small roads whenever it can. In my case it wanted me to turn right of a main road to travel 100m or so along a parallel side road before making another right turn back onto the main road! I'd noticed this when I created the route and fixed a few of them, but I must have missed this one. I think this may happen when you drag the route rather then using the original route selection, but I may be wrong!

[Bicycler]

The dual carriageway might be a mapping or routing issue. Richard - does cycle.travel recognise turn restriction relations where the 'via' role is a way rather than a node? Last time I checked I don't think that OSRM did.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Glad it was (mostly) a success!

I'm guessing the turn was probably a mapping error - if you let me know which turn it was then I can take a look. It might well be the issue Bicycler highlighted where a particular type of turn restriction isn't recognised by OSRM (the underlying engine that cycle.travel uses).

Fussy on-then-off routes are a difficult one to solve. It's less keen on them than it was before - with the most recent update, I made the routes more "sticky", so that once it's on a particular route it has a bias to keeping on it. But if it's a busy road it'll still try to spend as little time on it as possible. I suspect the solution here might be to really penalise right turns onto busy roads.

I'll put it on the to-do list. But not quite yet - I've been working on a fun new feature today which hopefully will be ready before too long...

[RickH]

The biggest was that it routed me to a dual carriageway from a side road. The route wanted me to turn right, but the junction was left turn only. I guess that is a mapping error?

What do the route instructions say? they will sometimes specify "on foot" if the routing decides there isn't a practical alternative that is rideable.

The other issue was that the route choice falls into the "Sustrans trap" of wanting to route you on small roads whenever it can. In my case it wanted me to turn right of a main road to travel 100m or so along a parallel side road before making another right turn back onto the main road! I'd noticed this when I created the route and fixed a few of them, but I must have missed this one. I think this may happen when you drag the route rather then using the original route selection, but I may be wrong!

Yes it can be a bit like that. The latest routing algorithm is much better. The old one I could get literally going round in circles trying to route onto back streets to avoid a "busy" road! There was one bit in Chester (ironically the road with three of the city's bike shops along it) where the old algorithm could make a 1/2 mile direct route into 2.5 miles that still turned on and off the main road as I added via points to try to get it to go where I wanted!

Rick.

[gloomyandy]

Not sure the best way to give you the details but here goes!

So here are the route instructions:

Code: Select all

18.8mi66.
Turn right onto B6265 Bradford Road
800m
19.3mi 67.
Turn right onto Royd Ings Avenue
900m
19.9mi 68.
Turn left onto Royd Way
200m
20mi major road69.
Turn right onto A650 Hard Ings Road
70m
20mi major road70.
At roundabout take A629 Hard Ings Road (exit 1)

Basically this route is near to Keighley approaching from Riddlesden. The problem is the right turn on to the A650 from Royd Way. No mention of walking or anything.

Googlemaps for the road here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.87632 ... 043597,17z

The streetview of this turn is here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Rid ... 41!6m1!1e1


Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a big issue, just thought it was something worth taking a look at. It is an odd bit of road, basically the A650 single carriageway splits into a dual carriageway for the roundabout and the side road joins this bit of road.