Statins - side effects

[mjr]

which is why the real food and paleo movements are growing quick ....

Ah yes, the real food movement - which some people use as an attempt to take what many lipid clinic dieticians have been telling us to do for 30+ years (less processed, more wholesome, protein and olive oil for energy and so on...) and trying to use it to suggest mainstream medicine is wrong!

[ianrobo]

which is why the real food and paleo movements are growing quick ....

Ah yes, the real food movement - which some people use as an attempt to take what many lipid clinic dieticians have been telling us to do for 30+ years (less processed, more wholesome, protein and olive oil for energy and so on...) and trying to use it to suggest mainstream medicine is wrong!

those dieticians are right but they go against the official advice of most countries

[mjr]

those dieticians are right but they go against the official advice of most countries

I've got some lovely glossy NHS-branded leaflets saying pretty much the same thing. I'm pretty sure they're official.

[ianrobo]

those dieticians are right but they go against the official advice of most countries

I've got some lovely glossy NHS-branded leaflets saying pretty much the same thing. I'm pretty sure they're official.

be interesting to see those because when you check official NHS website the advice is what I posted a few pages ago.

[mjr]

I've got some lovely glossy NHS-branded leaflets saying pretty much the same thing. I'm pretty sure they're official.

be interesting to see those because when you check official NHS website the advice is what I posted a few pages ago.

I won't scan the entirety of either because they're under copyright and I don't have a licence, but for the purpose of commentary, here's the cover of one (I suspect they're all the same) and a sample of the contents of the other I was given in 2014 (one is dated 2004), thrown on my scanner. These are leaflets DT/1703/08CHA868 and V1/PIN3500, in case they're online somewhere.

[ianrobo]

so much wrong with that, if dietary advice for diabetics then saturated fat has NO insulin response, butter is perfect. If not butter people use vegetable fats which are the real killers for me.

It says avoid low fat as lower in calories, it is pure nonsense, avoid it because it is bad fats and sugar ... continue to eat bread as a diabetic and you will never get cured of it.

[mjr]

so much wrong with that, if dietary advice for diabetics

Let me interrupt you there: it's not. Like most people who have been taking statins long enough to have run out of ones they can take, I'm a hypercholesterolaemiac and that's dietary advice for us.

butter is perfect. If not butter people use vegetable fats which are the real killers for me.

Some butter is almost as synthetic and bad for you as some vegetable-based replacements. It's not a naturally-occurring real food - you never see cows churning their own milk. Switch to olive oil and your body will probably thank you. Even if not, please take the butter fetish away from people who do indeed seem to have a harmful LDL response to it.

continue to eat bread as a diabetic and you will never get cured of it.

I've little idea about that, but based on my blood tests over decades and occasional food diaries, bread consumption level seems completely irrelevant to me.

[ianrobo]

remember everyone is different so discussions like this are in general, bread was slowly killing me as I had far too much and you will know bread itself is not only processed as sugar but has added sugar for browning. (no surprise today some reattach says over browned bread is bad for you).

As for LDL and cholesterol the recent science as we have discussed before no longer says it is such a problem with various kinds. My mum is on bloody statins and why ? because her cholesterol is high but the science no longer backs up it is dangerous.

And then it depends not he type of cholesterol anyway which is not really measured.

[mjr]

remember everyone is different so discussions like this are in general, bread was slowly killing me as I had far too much and you will know bread itself is not only processed as sugar but has added sugar for browning.

Bread is flour and water and yeast and the only sugar added is a tiny amount which is consumed by the yeast as it works before baking. No added sugar should be left in the baked bread. Are you talking about Chorleywood processed pap? I think that stuff shouldn't be allowed to be called bread, but that fight was lost long ago. Eating that probably isn't great for you.

As for LDL and cholesterol the recent science as we have discussed before no longer says it is such a problem with various kinds. My mum is on bloody statins and why ? because her cholesterol is high but the science no longer backs up it is dangerous.

And then it depends not he type of cholesterol anyway which is not really measured.

It can be measured and often is progressively measured in more detail, but while the side-effects of statins are underestimated, it's considered acceptable to prescribe them after the initial blunt cheap total-cholesterol screening test and not look much more closely (fasting tests which measure the LDL, or detailed tests which break that down further into vLDL and so on) unless there are problems. I hope the evidence of side effects are slowly gathering through Yellow Card and so on and that will change.

[ianrobo]

remember everyone is different so discussions like this are in general, bread was slowly killing me as I had far too much and you will know bread itself is not only processed as sugar but has added sugar for browning.

Bread is flour and water and yeast and the only sugar added is a tiny amount which is consumed by the yeast as it works before baking. No added sugar should be left in the baked bread. Are you talking about Chorleywood processed pap? I think that stuff shouldn't be allowed to be called bread, but that fight was lost long ago. Eating that probably isn't great for you.

As for LDL and cholesterol the recent science as we have discussed before no longer says it is such a problem with various kinds. My mum is on bloody statins and why ? because her cholesterol is high but the science no longer backs up it is dangerous.

And then it depends not he type of cholesterol anyway which is not really measured.

It can be measured and often is progressively measured in more detail, but while the side-effects of statins are underestimated, it's considered acceptable to prescribe them after the initial blunt cheap total-cholesterol screening test and not look much more closely (fasting tests which measure the LDL, or detailed tests which break that down further into vLDL and so on) unless there are problems. I hope the evidence of side effects are slowly gathering through Yellow Card and so on and that will change.

oh things are changing and even one statin maker Pzfier I think has withdrawn one, the evidence of now thousands of cases shows no benefits except in a few cases. In fact some studies shown that people who are old 85 plus have higher level of cholorsterol as measured by a GP is higher than those dying younger.

As for Bread it is about the flour/wheat and how the body processes that. Basically the carbs within it are processed exactly the same as sugar and has a GI impact.

[mjr]

oh things are changing and even one statin maker Pzfier I think has withdrawn one, the evidence of now thousands of cases shows no benefits except in a few cases.

I'd be interested in the details of that. I thought the only statin yet withdrawn was Bayer's Cerivastatin which had 10 times the side-effects and was implicated in deaths. Pfizer's was Atorvastatin but their patent expired 2012ish and now loads of people make it.

In fact some studies shown that people who are old 85 plus have higher level of cholorsterol as measured by a GP is higher than those dying younger.

I thought we knew that total cholesterol is correlated with age anyway, so that's not a surprise is it? It's people like my relatives, posting total cholesterol readings above 10 mmol/l when younger than 20, who statins were originally intended for and tested on.

As for Bread it is about the flour/wheat and how the body processes that. Basically the carbs within it are processed exactly the same as sugar and has a GI impact.

But it's not exactly the same as sugar: GI of common sugar is typically cited as just under 100, whereas the GI of bread can be anything from under 50 (wholemeal Real Bread - you can go lower with things like barley flour) to over 130 (factory-made brioche IIRC). GI is almost useless as a real-world tool because of wide variations like that. Sorry for not sugar-coating that - I hope you're not too bitter about it!

[softlips]

Working in cardiology I have to say statins have made a huge difference to the patients we see day in day out presenting acutely. They're not for everyone, no medication is, but if you have some risk and have no side effects I'm more than happy taking them. I've been on them for around 15 years, went on them at a time when just about every cardiologist over 30 was starting them.

[Mick F]

How high were your readings, and what was your dose?

[softlips]

How high were your readings, and what was your dose?

I can't remember what my levels were to be honest. I take 10mg Altorvaststin now.

I was sat with a group of senior consultants cardiologists and a professor of cardiology on Tuesday. A junior asked what the group thought had had the biggest impact on patients lives during their career and unanimously they said statins.

[thirdcrank]

... I was sat with a group of senior consultants cardiologists and a professor of cardiology on Tuesday. A junior asked what the group thought had had the biggest impact on patients lives during their career and unanimously they said statins.

Interesting how medics see something like this in terms of medication. As a layman - and a long term simvastatin "user" - I'd have plumped for reductions in smoking and possibly boozing.