Down Tube Shifters on a Moulton

[Mick F]

Hi R2,
B/Es were my first thought, but I love my mirror too much.

Kelly Take offs are worth a thought, but I'd prefer the DT lever approach.

I have a few irons in the fire at the moment. This story isn't over yet.

[Mick F]

http://problemsolversbike.com/products/downtube_shifter_mount1

31.8mm....how big is the headtube?

Sorry, Colin, I didn't get back to this question.

31.8mm
Trouble is, the top rails of the space frame are too wide and they're wrapped round the head tube front. The levers would foul the front rack top mounts too.

[Mick F]

Well, the story is NEARLY over.

I pondered over a design for the DT lever bosses, and drew out a reasonable plan. Our very own Ferrit Worrier offered to make a pair up and they arrived in the post yesterday. This morning, I pulled the front end off the Moulton so I could mount it in the stand easily, and spent a happy couple of hours fettling away ...................... then after putting it all back together, I had a very successful 15mile test ride.

My idea consisted of a DT boss on a M8 screw but with a long tail inside. The front rack braze-on is a tube with M8 threads either side but not right through. By screwing one boss all the way in, then by trial and error screwing the other side in, and trimming away the excess, they would meet in the middle and lock themselves tight.

The main issue of course is that they must be tight AND correctly aligned, so by adjusting and adjusting, I could get it spot on.

Here's a few photographs to show you wot I did ................ and wot Ferrit Worrier did.

[reohn2]

Those are quite neat fittings Mick,FW's made good job there .
I've never seen Campag D/T levers like that,they don't have the usual style and panache associated with Campag stuff,a bit clunky eastern block looking if I'm honest.

[Mick F]

Yes, Campag Victory.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx? ... b&Enum=104

IIRC, much of the groupset was "blocky" and plain.
When I first built my Mercian up, I used Victory stuff: brake calipers, brake levers, front mech, seat pin ........ and the DT levers. I lusted over the chainset and nearly bought one, but went for the cheaper Stronglight 99. This is going back to 1986 of course.

I still have the front mech as it's a "leisure" version for triples. I still have the seatpin fitted on Mercian ............. and now I have the DT shifters on Moulton.

Here's my Mercian in 1994. Earliest photograph I've found of him.
Stronglight 99 chainset 52/36 (still have it)
Campag Rally rear mech
Campag Record hubs
Suntour Ultra 6 freewheel 13-28 (still have many of the cogs - mainly worn out)
Campag Victory front mech (still have it)
Campag Victory DT levers (now on Moulton)
Campag Victory brakes and levers
Mavic MA40 rims
Campag Victory seatpin (still in use)
Maddison G14 saddle
Cinelli 1R stem (still in use)
Cinelli 64 'bars (still in use)
Campag Xenon(?) headset (still in use on Barbarella our bright red Mixte)

[ferrit worrier]

Hi Guys

I was going to scan micks drawing that I was using in the workshop as it is now full of scribble, I had to convert Micks metric measurements into imperial as my machinery is all imperial and Micks parts are all in metric so lots of addups and takeaways. unfortunately my scanner is refusing to scan to the computer no idea where it's sent the file quite a bit of head scratching before I started, but a good intense little project.

The almost finished job, testing the fit of the changer, before the threaded portion and reduced diameter for the spigot have been cut.

[Brucey]

Those are quite neat fittings Mick,FW's made good job there .
I've never seen Campag D/T levers like that,they don't have the usual style and panache associated with Campag stuff,a bit clunky eastern block looking if I'm honest.

FWIW I am inclined to agree. I didn't much like the styling of the Victory/Triomphe groupset when it was new either. As a Campag fan prior to that, it annoyed me that they appeared to have concentrated exclusively on improving the styling of their new products without actually improving their function in any noticeable way.

They look nicely made but I am a bit worried that the adaptor bosses will work loose in time unless they are mounted using a threadlock of some kind tbh. I also think there is a little bit of a missed opportunity in that

a) both levers could perhaps have been mounted on a QD bracket (to ease separation without thimbles as per early AM series) and
b) if mounted 'side by side' on a bracket the levers would have permitted a one-handed double shift; as it is they are probably separated too far apart to readily allow that?

BTW the Victory 'flat top' lever design arguably lends itself to a surface mount bracket, in that even when the lever is lying against the stop, parallel to the surface, there is still room behind the lever to get your fingers in. With older style levers (eg Nuovo Record, where one casting could be inverted and do both left and right handed levers) this isn't the case.

cheers

[Mick F]

The bosses are in tight. In fact very tight, so I doubt they'll work loose.
The inner spigot ends are tight against each other, and locked.

I installed them dry, which is possibly problematical for the future as they might seize in. I did them dry, and also cleaned out the threads so I could use Loctite. I doubt it's necessary, but the issue of "dryness' is worrying to me. I always use grease or copper grease on all threads ............... I've never had anything seize on a bike.

If the fancy takes me, and nothing shifts, I'll take them out and grease the threads. If they then start to shift, I'll remove them again, and use Loctite.

Meanwhile, I know those levers aren't beautiful in a classic way, so it could be that I'll fit something nicer. I'm not sure that some levers would fit in the same way. The Shimano Indexed 10sp Dura Ace are nice, but as I say, I don't know if they would fit. There's a "faring" on the instruction piccies.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... -shifters/
http://www.sjscycles.com/Instructions/S ... ctions.pdf

[georgew]

Being dissatisfied with the Sora STI's on my Esprit I re-fitted the original down-tube shifters on my Esprit but found the distance between the Bars and the levers just too much. So....ditched the Drops and ended up with this as a solution.

[url]http://s22.photobucket.com/user/onbike/media/IMAG0030_zpshlkahxs2.jpg.html][/url]

Oh yes....had to come up with a way to keep the mirror as I'm almost stone deaf so I bodged up a way to use my Mirrycle.

[Brucey]

...I'm not sure that some levers would fit in the same way. The Shimano Indexed 10sp Dura Ace are nice, but as I say, I don't know if they would fit. There's a "faring" on the instruction piccies....

you mean the bezel part referred to as the 'lever boss cover' ?

This part is a little zinc die casting with a thick plated layer on it. There are various versions of this part that go with different shimano levers. The interface that engages with the lever (eg RH side of the bezel on the RH lever) was first used with the Dura-Ace 7400 levers in 1984, and the same interface has been used with almost all shimano DT levers, bar end levers, (and some thumbshifters?) ever since. This means you can often swap these bezels around between different levers. You can also (usually) exchange LH and RH bezels because in any given pair they generally use the same mountings.

The other side of the bezel (that bears against the boss) also has a common feature which is the 12mm square recess that engages with the base of a standard campag lever boss. There is a variation in the bezels that fit bar end levers, being a recess for a 'pip' on the boss that is meant to ensure that a bar end lever will only fit one way round on the mounting. If the bezel lacks this recess or is fitted the wrong way round, the bezel can fail when the screw is tightened. There are flat bezel parts that are meant for use with frame bosses that already have a 'cover' built in (eg on Vintage Vitus frames) and there are other flat bezel parts that are spares for bar end levers. The latter will often work in the former application but not always the other way round. The significant variations in the bezel parts are

1) the curvature on the boss side of the bezel
2) the thickness of the bezel piece if it is flat
3) the presence (or not) of a recess for the bar end lever mounting 'pip'

There are also flat bezels which have a slight taper to them on the OD. These will often fit in place of ones with no taper but won't look quite right.

It turns out that if you fit a flat bezel piece of the wrong thickness to your bar-end levers, the cable won't line up with the exit drilling in the mount and the lever won't work properly. IIRC the DA 10s bar-end levers use a different thickness bezel to 8s, 9s bar end levers. In most other applications the bezel thickness isn't that important, provided the 12mm square is engaged, and the 'pip' issue is noted.

It should also be noted that in many cases the curved face of the bezel bears against the frame's DT (rather than the 12mm square bottoming out) so when you tighten the mounting screw the tension in the mounting screw is trying to tear the boss off the frame. Fortunately the mounting screw doesn't need to be very tight (since the tension in it affects neither the indexed nor friction performance of the lever), so traditional braze-on bosses usually survive this OK. If in doubt about the strength of a lever mounting (eg a bonded one on a carbon frame) it is best to choose a bezel that bottoms on the square so that the boss isn't being torn off. Occasionally a badly brazed lever boss will foul the back of the bezel so that it won't sit down properly on the frame. When this happens I think it is best to dress the boss or the bezel to make them fit properly.

You can dress these bezels by filing/grinding them on the back face and thus make the curved/wrong thickness ones 'fit' OK on non-standard bosses but this of course breaches the plating on them. Even if it doesn't immediately look a little bit gash (the plating tends to chip at the edges) the zinc die casting then tends to corrode in service and the result can look terrible after a few years. You can stem the corrosion using copious grease or waxoyl, but nothing works for ever.

SJS sell several different bezel parts that fit various different bar end and DT levers; they are not expensive. In Mick's case I'd suggest buying bar end levers and fitting the lever parts (plus the included flat bezels) to FW's creations.

hth

cheers

[Mick F]

Being dissatisfied with the Sora STI's on my Esprit I re-fitted the original down-tube shifters on my Esprit but found the distance between the Bars and the levers just too much. So....ditched the Drops and ended up with this as a solution.

Excellent!
I said earlier that I didn't want BEs because I love my mirror too much, but your solution is quite neat.

..........In Mick's case I'd suggest buying bar end levers and fitting the lever parts (plus the included flat bezels) to FW's creations.

Thanks Brucey, but it's at the far end of my experience.

Can you suggest which BEs?
Would these fit?
If so, how?
Seems rather expensive to use only part of the kit.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-dura-ac ... -shifters/

[Brucey]

expensive? Not for £53 quid a set they aren't!

Take a look at the EV techdoc here

http://www.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SL/EV-SL-BS79-2873A_v1_m56577569830728256.pdf

and you can see how the levers fit to what looks like a dummy DT lever boss on the bracket.

If you have the bar end kit this will of course give you many more options in the long run.

cheers

[deliquium]

expensive? Not for £53 quid a set they aren't!

Shimano Dura Ace 7700 9 Speed Bar End Lever Set are £6 more than 10 speed

Good quality stuff and much much simpler mechanisms than those ugly STi units

HERE

[Mick F]

Ok.
Not expensive then.
Friction is cheap!

Now, I have another question regarding BEs.
It seems they work "backwards"?
Looking at the piccies, the lever pulls cable in the opposite direction to DTs judging by the cable holes in the levers.
The levers turn upwards to shift to the bigger sprockets/rings?

As I say, this is at the far end of my experience. I've seen BEs, but never used them or seen them in use.

[georgew]

Ok.
Not expensive then.
Friction is cheap!

Now, I have another question regarding BEs.
It seems they work "backwards"?
Looking at the piccies, the lever pulls cable in the opposite direction to DTs judging by the cable holes in the levers.
The levers turn upwards to shift to the bigger sprockets/rings?

As I say, this is at the far end of my experience. I've seen BEs, but never used them or seen them in use.

The RH lever moves towards you to select higher gears and the LH lever moves towards you to find the largest Chain-ring.
I've always liked Bar-ends but was put off by the position on Drops and by the idea that the pointy end could end up embedded in my thigh if I came off....which of course happened. On Bull-Horns the position of the levers when using has no effect upon the steering and ones hands are always very near the gear levers and the brakes.....besides...I have a mean, lean and sporty image to maintain even when hurtling along at 10 mph.