Electronic Shifting

[jb]

Wasn't STI and Ergo shift once considered racing kit, with all the accompanying arguments about how touring cyclist didn't need the over complication of all those tiny ratchets & what-not.
Derailuers lasted forever and a bit because you didn't change unless absolutely necessary.

[reohn2]

Wasn't STI and Ergo shift once considered racing kit, with all the accompanying arguments about how touring cyclist didn't need the over complication of all those tiny ratchets & what-not.
Derailuers lasted forever and a bit because you didn't change unless absolutely necessary.

I never looked at STI's that way,I just thought they were really handy and in 1997 bought two sets of 7sp RSX triples one for my lighter Audax type bike and one for the tourer.
I thought they were great from day one,and they lasted forever(well almost) I sold them a couple of years ago on the forum with mega miles on them(approx 75k+ on one set and upwards of 40k miles on the other) and they still worked flawlessly.
I have two sets of 9sp triple STI's(one set are Ultegra one 105's) with upwards of 25k miles on them that are still working flawlessly,which is more than can be said for much of the later hidden cable 10sp STI's.
I bet the 11sp 'E' kit isn't so durable.
All that said on my two Vayas and the recent addition Circe tandem,I took a step 'backwards' and went for Kelly Take Off's with 8sp d/tube levers which are friction/index on the rear and friction only on the front with triple c/sets,I don't miss the STI's TBH which are still fitted to the C/dale tandem.

[Flinders]

Still wondering- if the battery goes flat when you're 15 miles from home, what happens?

[reohn2]

Still wondering- if the battery goes flat when you're 15 miles from home, what happens?

Which is a good point,and whether the mech(s) can be adjusted into a rideable gear to get you home or to a charging point.

[bigjim]

Out on a club run two recently. After about 20 fast rolling miles we stopped for coffee. I got talking to a fit young fellow rider. His 12 month old Ribble was off the road because the electronic 10 speed rear mech had shifted into the wheel and destroyed itself. Ribble told him he could not replace that part because it was no longer made by Shimano. He was informed he would have to buy a complete new system at £990 to ensure comapatability. His other option was to try to buy the part S/H off ebay but he would still have to go to a dealer to plug the bike into software to reconfigure the newly installed part. As he could not afford it the bike was in the shed and he was riding a borrowed newish bike. I had ridden in his company on my £100, 70s, 7speed road bike. Of course I'm an old git though I appreciate technology that improves things and makes life a bit easier, but what do I know?

[Brucey]

Still wondering- if the battery goes flat when you're 15 miles from home, what happens?

assuming it is just going flat in the usual way (rather than failing wholesale) then you ought to get a low battery warning, during which time the gears will work normally, for a few tens of miles at least, maybe more.

cheers

[mattsccm]

I'd swap to electrics if I could afford it, purely because it's nice to use. It wouldn't make me ditch the old kit though being it my 22 speed road bikes or the pre war Dawes fixed wheeler.
I understand peoples aversion but I also see that its similar to what's happened with cars. My father bemoans the demise of points that he can adjust but he happily makes the most of his new car as well and enjoys the fact that it runs faultlessly for years without any attention. When it does object to a lack of maintenance the fact that it is plugged into a computer and the problem is diagnosed in minutes not hours suits him nicely. I see electrical shifting as one of those things that those of us who knew something simpler can moan about but to a younger generation it will be the norm.
As they can run electrics on submarines and in space I don't see the British weather as a challenge and surely indexing will be easier with a laptop than a cable. Simplicity doesn't appeal to all. How many people are still using a dial phone or writing letters to forums?
Cost?
Who is going to care. Our society as a whole throws money to the winds. We all do it, be it on bikes, beer or the garden.

[mig]

beer is throwing money away? what sort of crazy talk is that..!!

[bigjim]

Who is going to care. Our society as a whole throws money to the winds. We all do it, be it on bikes, beer or the garden.

Well I don't think we all do. A lot of people are on a modest income but still want to enjoy their cycling. You can only configure the gearing electronics on a main dealers computer as far as I'm aware, not on a domestic laptop. Your dads car may be reliable, but I think to check out a fault at the dealers is, what, about £100+, to just plug it in? If you have not got the money to throw at these things, does that mean that you should be priced out of the game?

[RickH]

You can only configure the gearing electronics on a main dealers computer as far as I'm aware, not on a domestic laptop.

Shimano seem to have readily available (& free) software (link) for PC & iPad. Does it need anything more?

You're dads car may be reliable, but I think to check out a fault at the dealers is, what, about £100+, to just plug it in? If you have not got the money to throw at these things, does that mean that you should be priced out of the game?

Most small garages seem to have the technology to work on most cars & I believe you can get diagnostic software that will run on a laptop with a, relatively, inexpensive hardware link.

[SpannerGeek]

You can only configure the gearing electronics on a main dealers computer as far as I'm aware, not on a domestic laptop.

Shimano seem to have readily available (& free) software (link) for PC & iPad. Does it need anything more?

You're dads car may be reliable, but I think to check out a fault at the dealers is, what, about £100+, to just plug it in? If you have not got the money to throw at these things, does that mean that you should be priced out of the game?

Most small garages seem to have the technology to work on most cars & I believe you can get diagnostic software that will run on a laptop with a, relatively, inexpensive hardware link.

You can configure, program AND hack di2 at home with Shimano's readily available interface for under £100. The software is updated regularly and it'll work with any di2 kit from any generation. A Chinese company have reverse engineered this box and it's soon to be available for about £40, roughly the price of a good steel tool.

As for batteries, mine last about 1500-2000 miles between charges, so I get about 2.5 months out of them. I carry a spare on tour which I bought on eBay for a tenner. Since all Lithium batteries have a good recharge life of 500 cycles they should last me into my 70's!

This is where di2 gets interesting:

Synchronized Shifting: Starting with Dura-Ace 9150, automated Synchronized Shifting of the front derailleur is an option. Two SHIMANO Synchronized Shift modes will be available:

Full SHIMANO Synchronized Shift: the front derailleur reacts based on the rear derailleur’s shift action. This essentially means that, when activated, there is no need for two separate shifters to control front and rear derailleurs, the two buttons on one shifter will control both derailleurs.

Semi SHIMANO Synchronized Shift mode: the rear derailleur reacts based on the front derailleur’s shift action, shifting to the next most appropriate rear gear when the rider makes a front shift.

So, the ability to control your entire drive train with just one lever and two buttons.. When this hits 105 and below its curtains for mechanical.

Di2 is used almost exclusively in Cyclocross now. Contrary to what others say, the punishment it gets is ridiculous. Up past the bracket in water, hosed down after every race. I've seen rear derailleurs completely submerged, battery units under water, the drivetrain caked in hardening mud, and still 100% perfect shifts, under heavy load, and still auto trim of the front derailleur to match the position of the rear. Mechanical fails under most of that which is why di2 is the preferred method .

I'm going to take this 6870 kit through a typical British winter, I'm not expecting it to perform any less well than its done so far. I'll update how it goes.

Of course this will all change again next year when di2 goes wireless to compete with SRAM, who incidentally have TWO batteries, one in each mech which can be swapped out if one goes flat.

As for reliability, I don't know of any mechanical system which, when it gets a bash, automatically tucks itself out of the way. The di2 rear mech has an accelerometer which can sense a crash coming and protects itself.

Personally I would always wait till the third iteration of a piece of technology till I buy into it. I went in with 6870 because it's so simple to install. Wireless will be even easier. It's never going to be cheap. Get over it! But if 105 di2 comes in about £600, and an upgrade kit for 350, you'll start finding it on every entry level carbon bike and from there it'll spread to become a de facto piece of equipment.

The target market will be people who have bought into 11 speed shimano mechanical, all shimano have to do is price it cleverly, stop supporting 10 speed shimano and they're away. Modern cycling marketing is all about upselling existing customers. All the naysaying in the world won't change that. And Shimano excel at it.

[Graham]

Of course this will all change again next year when di2 goes wireless to compete with SRAM, who incidentally have TWO batteries, one in each mech which can be swapped out if one goes flat.

I have to carry around TWO batteries for each control . .. and another battery for the mech itself . . . = SIX batteries per bike.

Maybe I'll just stick to finger power.

The world has gone mad . . . stunned silence . . .

[bigjim]

all shimano have to do is price it cleverly, stop supporting 10 speed shimano and they're away.

I thought Shimano had already done that. According to Ribble. I would give electronic a go, probably on a rental while I'm in Mallorca. In some situations there is a gain I suppose and if the price was low enough it would be tempting and we need to keep the cycle industry alive. However maybe I'm a bit sad, but I do get a satisfaction of using DT levers to enable a smooth shift and quiet running. The loss of mechanical skills is continuing. I always enjoyed my driving when we had crash gear boxes. There was a feelgood factor when doubledeclutching on a downshift, controlling a big roaring diesel to set it up just right for an upcoming incline. Now the dam things do all the thinking for you, leaving you plenty of time to text, ring your mates.

[Brucey]

to paraphrase, it is all very well saying

'it does this clever thing or that clever thing and this might give you a marginal gain when you are racing'

or

you 'only' need a computer and an interface lead and some software and a mountain of shortly-to-be-unavailable spare parts and then you might be able to fix it

but this is a bit like extolling the virtues of (say) Chris Froome's TT bike as a London commuting machine, or an F1 car for nipping down the shops.

Completely the wrong technology for the task in hand. Turning a bicycle into a gimmicky servo-controlled computer on wheels is of no real benefit to the vast majority of cyclists; it leaves them with nearly all the things that used to stop the bike from working, but also adds a load more, which are suddenly made ten times more difficult and/or expensive to sort out.

FWIW there have been systems that do the double-shift for you in the past. They worked OK but this turned out to be such a compelling advantage that the products are no longer made and pretty much sank without trace.

cheers

[reohn2]

....... I see electrical shifting as one of those things that those of us who knew something simpler can moan about but to a younger generation it will be the norm.........
....... Simplicity doesn't appeal to all......

But is it simpler?
I find cable gears simplicity itself,once set up properly it runs sweet for thousands of miles,of course it needs chains and cassettes and a chainring once in a blue moon but that's the same for E gearing too.parts are cheap enough providing you don't want silliness DA,C/record,or the silliness of 10+sp transmissions.
Now if the cost of E kit,motors,batteries,mechs and levers were dirt cheap it could be a different story,but up to now that ain't the case.
As for simplicity I can't see how an E system is,other than press button instead of lever pushing.

I've just read Spannergeek's last post,computer diagnostics,batteries a plenty,charging of which must be remembered,etc.
That said,for racing and particularly cross racing in filthy conditions that's a definite maybe,outside of race there's no need,but as I posted previously,want is another matter in the 'new golf' world........