Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

ian s
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by ian s »

It still has a little to do with cycling, though far more with what is clearly the obsession of a small but vocal (and persistent) minority.

There are many things that could be done to get people out of their cars, but, by and large the majority don't want to give up their cars, and democracies are about what the majority want. Thus, at the moment, the "greens" who clearly want the whole world to revert to the dark ages, at the moment are a small minority, but a very vociferous minority. For the majority the inconsequentially small amount of urban air pollution is a price worth paying for a 21st century way of life. Lets face it, urban air quality is vastly better than it was only 50 years ago, even more so 100 years ago
Psamathe
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Psamathe »

ian s wrote:... but, by and large the majority don't want to give up their cars, and democracies are about what the majority want. Thus, at the moment, the "greens" who clearly want the whole world to revert to the dark ages, at the moment are a small minority, but a very vociferous minority....

I think a lot has to do with how ideas are expressed. I don't see it as people "giving-up their cars". It's a balance where people start reducing their unnecessary use of their cars. Walk (or cycle or give other locals a lift) the kids to school (even only on finer weather days). Plan supermarket shops ahead a bit more so make fewer shopping trips (or even start online purchases) ... and discover that you also have more free time to do what you really want to. etc.

Not an either/or, just a shift in balance.

ian s wrote:... For the majority the inconsequentially small amount of urban air pollution is a price worth paying for a 21st century way of life. Lets face it, urban air quality is vastly better than it was only 50 years ago, even more so 100 years ago

Yet still current figures are 40,000 deaths per year. Compare that to the effort and expenditure on saving people from the domestic threat from terrorism, etc. and air pollution would seem a bit more serious than an "inconsequentially small amount of urban air pollution is a price worth paying for a 21st century way of life".

A quote I find helps me get things in perspective ""Since 9/11, 53 people have been killed by terrorists in the UK. Every one of those deaths is tragic. So is every one of the 26,805 deaths to have occurred on Britain's roads between 2002 and 2012 inclusive." (from a couple of years ago). So look at road deaths 27,000 over 10 years= average 2,700 per year; yet air pollution is causing 40,000 deaths per year!

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Mick F
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mick F »

ian s wrote:Lets face it, urban air quality is vastly better than it was only 50 years ago, even more so 100 years ago
I started this thread because the pollution from diesel cars in a RURAL area is getting intollerable.

I've been riding these particular roads for over 30years - much of it daily commuting - and it's only in the last couple of years that it's become horrible.

Urban areas always were, and still remain horrible IMO.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by al_yrpal »

With China going for electric cars in a big way because they have got to for the health of their population , with solar panels mostly made there, with battery technology becoming a key component of vehicle use and possibly green energy storage, its the Chinese that will be driving the development and affordability of these devices. I agree we should be doing our bit, particularly the R and D bit I'm hoping. In the meantime we should frack away to rid ourselves of the last coal fired stations and power as much of our vehicle fleet by gas as possible, it would be a step in the right direction.

As for rural diesel smells I have yet to experience them? Possibly its Cornwall's aged vehicle fleet and hilly topography thats responsible for the problem?


Al
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Vorpal »

al_yrpal wrote:With China going for electric cars in a big way because they have got to for the health of their population ,

Most electricity generation in China is from coal. That will make things worse, not better. :evil:
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Mick F
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mick F »

al_yrpal wrote:As for rural diesel smells I have yet to experience them? Possibly its Cornwall's aged vehicle fleet and hilly topography thats responsible for the problem?
You're lucky then.

It's not the aged diesel fleet that's the problem. It's new ones too. :shock:
Yes, I've already said, that on the flat bits (and the downhills I suppose) there isn't a problem.
It's the HILLS and flooring their throttles as they overtake.
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by al_yrpal »

Vorpal wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:With China going for electric cars in a big way because they have got to for the health of their population ,

Most electricity generation in China is from coal. That will make things worse, not better. :evil:


As I said the Chinese are going big time into battery powered vehicles powered by renewables with the hope of seriously diminishing their reliance on coal. A large part of China is the Gobi desert. Watch that space… The number of electric bikes you see in China is amazing. Far fewer pedal powered bikes in big cities nowadays.

Al
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Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

ian s wrote:... the "greens" who clearly want the whole world to revert to the dark ages.....


:lol: yeah that's one way of looking at it I suppose :lol: , others might argue what the 'greens' really want is to consign obsolete technologies like the internal combustion engine to the dustbin of history asap and get on with rolling out some more modern, clean transport solutions



...Lets face it, urban air quality is vastly better than it was only 50 years ago, even more so 100 years ago...



Yep, that's because we've gone from coal to gas for domestic heating, outsourced most of our manufacturing pollution to China and mandated the 3 way catalyst for petrol engines. If it wasn't for the damage being done by diesel engines we wouldn't have these dangerous, illegal levels of roadside pollution.
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Psamathe »

al_yrpal wrote:....As for rural diesel smells I have yet to experience them? Possibly its Cornwall's aged vehicle fleet and hilly topography thats responsible for the problem?

I find diesel smells in rural roads quite unpleasant on occasions (and I'm not in Cornwall).

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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

Vorpal wrote:
Mark R wrote:
The problem is excessive vehicle use. Don't become distracted by what vehicle.


Are you talking about climate change and global warming? If so yes I agree: petrol vs diesel = utterly irrelevant

If however we are talking about dangerous, illegal levels of air pollution in UK cities, in particular NOx emissions, then I am afraid diesel vehicles are far and away the biggest problem. An inconvenient truth for diesel enthusiasts everywhere.

But it doesn't help just to get people to switch. It only delays the problem, and possibly makes it much, much worse than people merely dying prematurely, which they have been doing as a direct result of pollution since the industrial revolution.

If action were taken to get more people walking cycling and using public transport, we do more to address dangerous levels of pollution than just getting drivers to trade in their diesels for petrol vehicles can ever do.


Why present a binary choice between diesel and petrol when this is blatantly inaccurate and misleading?

The reality is a choice between diesel and petrol, lpg, cng, various types of hybrid, electric.... In Norway almost 30% of new car sales in 2016 were electric or hybrid...

What makes you think that getting the worst polluters off the road asap would be an impediment to investment on active travel and public transport?

Surely getting the air quality sorted out quickly makes walking and cycling a far easier sell as the healthy option?
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Vorpal »

Mark R wrote:The reality is a choice between diesel and petrol, lpg, cng, various types of hybrid, electric.... In Norway almost 30% of new car sales in 2016 were electric or hybrid...

In Norway, electric cars are exempt from most taxes, (high on other cars in Norway) which makes them priced competitively. In addition, electric cars can use bus lanes, have preferential parking places, and other perqs. Many employers and some communities also provide electricity free at the point of usage to the drivers of electric cars. Can you imagine all that happening in the UK?

It needs those sorts of initiatives, otherwise most people simply won't consider electric as an alternative.
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

Can you imagine all that happening in the UK?


Well I don't find it any more unlikely than draconian anti-car measures, which would be your only chance to get air pollution under control without specifically targeting the worst polluters.

If you could reduce the total number of vehicles by 25% (how long would that take?) we would still have illegal levels of roadside air pollution thanks to the (still) high proportion of dirty diesels
pwa
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by pwa »

Living in a rural area I'm in nor rush to get rid of my diesel car. It's a bit of a non-issue here. But in large cities, where the issue is most urgent, surely one way to encourage use of electric cars is to provide free parking. Maybe just for the smallest cars. Imagine the incentive that would give regular commuters.
hamster
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by hamster »

Vorpal wrote:
Mark R wrote:The reality is a choice between diesel and petrol, lpg, cng, various types of hybrid, electric.... In Norway almost 30% of new car sales in 2016 were electric or hybrid...

In Norway, electric cars are exempt from most taxes, (high on other cars in Norway) which makes them priced competitively. In addition, electric cars can use bus lanes, have preferential parking places, and other perqs. Many employers and some communities also provide electricity free at the point of usage to the drivers of electric cars. Can you imagine all that happening in the UK?

It needs those sorts of initiatives, otherwise most people simply won't consider electric as an alternative.


Norway also has the luxury of its topography enabling most of its electricity to be Hydro. It's one of the few places where an electric car truly means zero CO2 or atmospheric pollution.
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by reohn2 »

hamster wrote:Norway also has the luxury of its topography enabling most of its electricity to be Hydro. It's one of the few places where an electric car truly means zero CO2 or atmospheric pollution.


We in the UK aren't short of a river or three,who's constant flowing energy could be harnessed if there were a politrickal will,here's an example of what a small river can provide:- http://www.whalleyhydro.co.uk/
Imagine what lots of these could provide up and down the country and in line on any river with enough flow.
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