Victim blaming?

[reohn2]

One can see black things well in the snow.

And against a setting sun.
It can also be argued that Hi Viz yellow and orange is harder to see against Autumnal foliage.

[Cyril Haearn]

Surely universal Hi-Vis garments could be produced, yellow, red, matt black all at the same time.

[mjr]

Surely universal Hi-Vis garments could be produced, yellow, red, matt black all at the same time.

Ah, but then you get accused of wearing "dazzle" camouflage!

[Flinders]

I also think black cars are a bad idea, for that very reason. But I am not "victim blaming" drivers of black cars for every other vehicle that drives into them.

I have spent my working life in industries where hi-viz is normal work wear, so for me it seems abnormal to be in an area of raised risk without a hi-viz top. Wearing it does not, for me, imply that the activity is too dangerous to be done sanely. It just implies that reasonable care is needed. Which it is.

Our car is black (not our choice, the only one available in the type and size 2nd hand at the time- even that had to be sent halfway across the country to our main dealer).
I wouldn't want another one. It's clear from they way other drivers drive that they don't see it as easily as the white one we had.
It's also clear that the best colour for encouraging other drivers to give the car space is red. When we had a red one, we were given lots more space.
I understand that people think drivers of red cars are risk takers (though I'm deffo not a risk-taker myself) and should be given more space............

[landsurfer]

I have a large Isuzu Utah 5 seater pick up truck. big .... some would huge ..Very Red .........but ....... it seems to have a "Klingon Cloaking Device" judging by the amount of people that don't seem to notice it until the last moment ...

[mjr]

I have a large Isuzu Utah 5 seater pick up truck. big .... some would huge ..Very Red .........but ....... it seems to have a "Klingon Cloaking Device" judging by the amount of people that don't seem to notice it until the last moment ...

I've driven red cars, blue cars, black cars and white vans. All of them got cut up sometimes by people who weren't looking. None of them was noticeably better or worse than the others. I understand that the "population" statistics from insurer organisations vary over time, where one will say that yellow is worst, while another (different country or different year) will says white. So I feel it's a nonsense argument put forward by apologists for incompetent motoring - sometimes well-meaning ones, perhaps, but still apologists.

[landsurfer]

I have a large Isuzu Utah 5 seater pick up truck. big .... some would huge ..Very Red .........but ....... it seems to have a "Klingon Cloaking Device" judging by the amount of people that don't seem to notice it until the last moment ...

So I feel it's a nonsense argument put forward by apologists for incompetent motoring - sometimes well-meaning ones, perhaps, but still apologists.

Think the point I was trying to make was exactly what you are saying ... i think .... colour, size type does not matter at all .... situational and spatial awareness are my key words for driving, look ...look again and then take a look ...mirror and more mirror ... understand that you are in control of a Steel and plastic death machine .... and act to do no harm ......

[Ruadh495]

I'm sure none of "us" do it; but drivers in general do seem to make judgments based on the appearance of other vehicles and drive accordingly.

I once owned a van. When I drove my van I had few problems with other road users. If I put my canoe on the roof of my van, I started to get cut up, pulled out in front of etc. I had changed from a business user to a leisure user and my position in the road hierarchy had dropped. A canoe on a car has no effect, it's normal.

This is bad news for cyclists. A cyclist is either a leisure user or someone too poor to own a car, so cyclists' road status is automatically low. This means cyclists are expected to always keep out of the way of more "important" road users. When drivers expect to be given priority, accidents happen...

BTW my current car is red and has a variety of dents and scrapes touched up with red oxide; I get lots of space on the road... The dents were all applied by the previous owner, but they don't know that.

[[XAP]Bob]

I can agree with that - I used to use a plain white van a fair amount (my brother's long base Sprinter) and I'd pull up to a mini roundabout - clearly arriving third, and stop.

A little while later I'd just go - because no-one else seemed able to make the decision. No doubt it will have registered as a WVM pushing onto the roundabout.

[pwa]

I had to pop out in the car this morning at about 7am, and I parked for a few minutes in a side street. When I returned to the car, in the dark, I opened the door and as I was doing so I became aware of a strange, slightly squeaky noise, a bit like a dry chain. I looked up and saw, going along the main road at the end of the side street, a man on a Brompton. He was dressed in black, his bike was black, and the only conspicuous detail was a pathetic little flicker of red from the side of an inadequate rear light. From the side I could see no evidence of any front light, but that may just have been the angle. The reason I heard him was the low wind speed and the absence of other traffic at that moment. The man reminded me of a cat burglar returning from a job. If I had been in the car with the door shut I would probably not have heard him. With the houses and parked cars on the other side of the road lit up by street lights the man and his bike were not much more than a silhouette to me. It was a clear morning, but if it had been raining and I had been inside the car he would have been hard to see. If I had been pulling out onto the main road, in rain, I would have been looking through a side window with no wiper. I'm a careful driver and look for other road users, but it would not have taken more than a slight mistake on my part to pull out in his path.

I'm not getting into the question of who would be to blame, but if I had been in a position to speak to the man, as someone who cares about his welfare, I would have told him that I found it hard to see him against a backdrop of brighter objects, and I would urge him to reconsider his dark clothing and feeble lights. I would be speaking as a driver who tries to watch out for other road users but knows that he is fallible.

[[XAP]Bob]

The real issue there is inadequate lights, not clothing.

It sounds as though his lights had all but failed. This is something that rarely happens with proper lighting systems, but unlike the Germans we assume that all bikes are for sport and so use battery powered lights for everything. With LED lights this is made worse by their ability to shine nicely for a few seconds from a 'rested' battery that is otherwise basically dead...

I don't consider my clothing to be a significant factor in my visibility - the vehicle is highly visible (decent German front and rear lights, additional front and rear reflectors, as well as spoke reflectors on both front wheels, and a bonus rechargeable battery rear light (lasts about two weeks I've just found out) for the main commuter)

[mjr]

I had a near-miss the night before last where I simply didn't see an oncoming cyclist. However, it was completely my fault because I had drifted right while gawping at a construction-site bonfire (and wondering how many particulates were being emitted) and I'd failed to spot his headlight against the bright (often misaligned AFAICT) car headlights behind him until very late. I was on a roadside two-way cycle track on the "wrong" side of the road, but there is no track on the other side there and I trust following motorists less than oncoming cyclists.

We both skidded to a stop within less than a metre of each other, I apologised profusely and he said it was OK. I feel he maybe could have done a few other things to avoid the collision less dramatically (bell, shout...) and if there had been two with-flow cycle tracks or more width or more separation from the carriageway, my failure to keep left would have mattered less, but ultimately it was my fault for drifting right and thank heavens we escaped and I'm not having to deal with a claim for damages. I rarely screw up like that and of course, one time has to be when it mattered

I do wonder how motorists would react in a similar situation, though. Probably much more abuse being thrown around, based on past incidents I've witnessed. Do you think the relative safe-feeling vehicles means people focus more on the damage to their property than appreciating we just escaped injury?

[gaz]

What about Hi-Vis that gives a road safety message? (Link contains swearing).

Puts the blame where it belongs .

[Phil Fouracre]

Now, that would be fun to wear!!! Bet you'd get some 'interesting' responses

[Flinders]

I have a large Isuzu Utah 5 seater pick up truck. big .... some would huge ..Very Red .........but ....... it seems to have a "Klingon Cloaking Device" judging by the amount of people that don't seem to notice it until the last moment ...

I've driven red cars, blue cars, black cars and white vans. All of them got cut up sometimes by people who weren't looking. None of them was noticeably better or worse than the others. I understand that the "population" statistics from insurer organisations vary over time, where one will say that yellow is worst, while another (different country or different year) will says white. So I feel it's a nonsense argument put forward by apologists for incompetent motoring - sometimes well-meaning ones, perhaps, but still apologists.

I can only say my experience is different. As soon as we got the black car I was aware that other drivers became much more likely to pull out in front of me, or pull out into the lane I was in directly in front of me, or attempt to pull out even whilst still alongside me. The red car was actually a bit better than the previous white one if anything. But the black one it was immediately apparent that people either didn't see it as easily as red, or reacted differently to it for other reasons. Maybe a black one is harder to see in a mirror. I don't know the reason, there is probably not just one reason.
You don't have to believe it, but it is true nontheless.