Cycling opportunity Keswick -Kendal

[Pete Owens]

That's all well and good if you're actually going to the m6. You do realise people live and work in the lake district? There's businesses affected, livelihoods affected and a real cost to communities.

Sorry, but the speciofic example that you supplied of the "essential" nature of that particular road was you supposed inability to access the routes on the western side of Helvelyn - it is perfectly reasonable to point out that you can currently meet your need by using a bus. Indeed it is a far superior option for walking as it alows you to start and finish your walk from different points. This is entirely typical of the "polite society" which I referred in my original post who simply cannot envisage travelling anywhere other than by car. Usually whenever this is raised the conversation moves on to rural-area-with-no-bus-service - well now there is such a service.

But hey it's ok because you can take a bus journey or enjoy a nice, nearly traffic free bike ride.

Ah yes the sneering "cars are more important than buses or cycles" argument. The point was not that I could use a bus, buth that YOU could - as could the overwhelming majority of people that travel between Grasmere and Keswick.

This is particularly inappropriate in this case - as the vast majority of buisinesses in the Lakes are dependent on the tourist industry. The folk attracted to the nice bike ride will be spending money in the buisnesses in Grasmere and Keswick, fuelling the local economy.

Sorry but that doesn't cut it for quite a lot who live, work and need to travel over that road in their own motorised transport.

Many people need to travel - very few need to take their own personal vehicle with them. The priority with an actual need to travel (kids from Grasmere travelling to school in Keswick) was actually met very soon after the road was washed away.

Examples the businessman with businesses either side of Dunmail Raise.

There are possible disruptions to supply chains for example buisinesses in Grasmere may chose suppliers from Ambleside rather than Keswick. It is not as if Grasmere is cut off from the world.

He now spends a lot of his time in a car taking a long detour between Grasmere, Keswick and other areas.

Oh I thought you were talking about transporting goods rather than people - who can catch the bus. I'm not sure exactly how many such buisnessmen you think there are, or how nescessary their car journies were.

The people I know living either side of the roadworks who no longer socialise as often. Minor thing but actual social connections are important. That's just some examples there'll be many more.

A frequent bus service opens up the potential to socialise for those (probably still a majority) without a private car.

Sorry about banging on a bit but I think that just because we're a cycling forum doesn't mean we can forget about actual cost of this closed road. 4000 to 7000 vehicles crossed over that section every day before it got cut. A bus every hour or so and bikes won't replace those journeys, many of which are needed.

The fact that the bus only runs hourly is evidence of how few of those journies actually were "needed". If there was the demand then a more frequent service would be justified.

Detour over Kirkstone pass is significantly longer and would have a cost too. Also I've been over that pass in winter and can tell you it closes leaving people with a very long detour.

Or the indignity of sharing a bus.

Still I too fancy trying it out with the road closed to most vehicles. Guess I'm selfish too.

No, just so blind to alternatives that you assume that just because you can't take your car somewhere then that place is somehow innaccessible.

[Paulatic]

[Tangled Metal]

Some tourists, some captive audience and some who would use the service anyway. Mind you the average vehicle use on that road before the flood damage has been reported at 3000 to 7000 vehicles per day that's potentially 10 days at the most if you assume 1 person per vehicle. If you consider how long the bus route has been in operation, does that mean fewer people travelling that route?

[Pete Owens]

Some tourists, some captive audience and some who would use the service anyway. Mind you the average vehicle use on that road before the flood damage has been reported at 3000 to 7000 vehicles per day that's potentially 10 days at the most if you assume 1 person per vehicle. If you consider how long the bus route has been in operation, does that mean fewer people travelling that route?

Obviously so - but it does give an indication as to how low a propotion of those motor journies were actually nescessary.

[Flinders]

. Puts a few grumpy locals into perspective especially since locals tend to.have family or friends in the farming community and may be the partner or family of a farmer themselves. Add in the fact there were cases of irresponsible people who ignored restrictions, people with a ghoulish interest in visiting to see what was happening, etc. A very touchy time I seem to recall.

I realise perfectly how difficult it can be for farmers. That's exactly why we rang up the tourist information centre, whose job is to know what is going on and should be encouraging people to come and do the right things, to find out what we could do safely, and got the whatsit's rush (and incidentally no information). TIC employees are not 'a few grumpy locals'. And we were certainly not ghoulish, I found the piles of burning carcasses in my own area horrible - another reason why we wanted to do everything right.

Some of the people ignoring restrictions were farmers. If you know farmers, you will know that, and why- I have no intentions of going into that here. We ourselves (when walking on the roads) saw that some farmers were taking few or no precautions when going on and off farms with vehicles. For the vast majority of farmers, who were dreading getting F&M, that was a far bigger risk to them than just about anything could be.

[Flinders]

Some tourists, some captive audience and some who would use the service anyway. Mind you the average vehicle use on that road before the flood damage has been reported at 3000 to 7000 vehicles per day that's potentially 10 days at the most if you assume 1 person per vehicle. If you consider how long the bus route has been in operation, does that mean fewer people travelling that route?

Obviously so - but it does give an indication as to how low a propotion of those motor journies were actually nescessary.

Most journeys we make are not 'necessary' in that they are not life or death, so that's a silly argument. Besides, many people have had to make a very long detour. That's lousy for the environment, as it wastes fuel. For instance, if it was my local road, I couldn't use the substitute bus for many of my journeys because of the things I have to carry for work. I would imagine it is the same for many locals there.

[Tangled Metal]

Some tourists, some captive audience and some who would use the service anyway. Mind you the average vehicle use on that road before the flood damage has been reported at 3000 to 7000 vehicles per day that's potentially 10 days at the most if you assume 1 person per vehicle. If you consider how long the bus route has been in operation, does that mean fewer people travelling that route?

Obviously so - but it does give an indication as to how low a propotion of those motor journies were actually nescessary.

Most journeys we make are not 'necessary' in that they are not life or death, so that's a silly argument. Besides, many people have had to make a very long detour. That's lousy for the environment, as it wastes fuel. For instance, if it was my local road, I couldn't use the substitute bus for many of my journeys because of the things I have to carry for work. I would imagine it is the same for many locals there.

That is kind of my point too.

Pete Owens point is hardly valid without knowing how many journeys are being made along the detour. From tourists taking the M6 to Penrith and on to Keswick when they possibly go via Ambleside previously. Or people making the route up the struggle and round towards Keswick.

30,000 bus journeys since first half of January I believe. The previous vehicle journeys over the same time would be approximately 42,000 to 98,000 of which I am sure some would have more than one person in them. I would expect the number of journeys to be towards the lower end due to the time of the year but I would expect 50,000+ is reasonable then how many people would that work out at your guess is as good as mine.

What that drop off shows is that people are not making the journey or going via other ways. I think it is not logical to say that drop off is due to the unnecesary journeys no longer being made, If for no other reason than we do not know how many are going via detours. I'm sure there is a term to describe that form of logic (erroneous logic that is).

[Paulatic]

[Tangled Metal]

It was on the local news today that the road has been opened. Anyone up there driven it yet?

[jgurney]

the road has been opened.

An e-mail headed 'Cumbria is Open!' from Independent Hostels Guide turned out to be about this - no-one would gather from reading it that cyclists and bus travelers have in fact been passing that way for months.

[bogmyrtle]

the road has been opened.

An e-mail headed 'Cumbria is Open!' from Independent Hostels Guide turned out to be about this - no-one would gather from reading it that cyclists and bus travelers have in fact been passing that way for months.

The 'Cumbria is Open' logo has been in use since December to inform people who may have been looking to go to the area over the festive period but would be put off thinking the whole area was no go due to the floods.