Tram lines...

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[XAP]Bob
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Tram lines...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Out on a Dublin bike again today - and overtook a lady on another as we approached a particularly tricky little combination of junction and tram lines (bottom end of Lower Gardiner Street).

A few seconds later I heard the crash of a falling bike...
She'd manage to get tramlined.
Fortunately the car behind her was quite able to stop, and a couple of others helped her off the road at least.

I could see that she was still somewhat in shock, and so we walked the bikes to the nearest dock and then she offered to take me for a drink.

I was surprised at just how long it took to come out of shock properly, there is no magic off switch, but it must have taken at least 20 minutes (which is why I didn't leave her on the roadside).

I shall be out and about on them tomorrow, and I hope she will continue to use them... first day at her new job :(
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Grandad
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Grandad »

Everyone involved in getting trams back in our cities should be compelled to cycle along their routes every day for a month. Hopefully a lot of them will be tramlined. Perhaps this would give a message to any other authorities who are considering imposing these abominations.

PS - I don't like trams :D
karlt
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by karlt »

I'm all for trams. I'm not for them running in a lane cyclists will have to use and I'm not for them crossing the carriageway at stupidly shallow angles. Sheffield I am lookng at you.
lingy
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by lingy »

And Manchester. Brilliant trams but a blatant disregard for cyclists.


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Si
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Si »

Even before the new city centre trams starting running in Brum a number of people have gone over on them. The local cycle training company has offered sessions to cover riding with trams, and the council has put up lots of cyclist dismount signs.. I foresee much waling and gnashing of teeth now the trams are running.
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661-Pete
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by 661-Pete »

The nearest tram networks to where we live are in Croydon - which I have negotiated, gingerly - and from our place in France, in Toulouse (which I haven't: but what I've seen of the network in that city, they seem well segregated). I would guess that our Continental cousins, having more experience of trams than we have, are also rather better at considering the needs of cyclists....

I don't know about Dublin - I didn't even know they had trams there, I don't recall any from the last time I was there. A fairly recent introduction I suppose? Cyclists beware!
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tatanab
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by tatanab »

661-Pete wrote:I would guess that our Continental cousins, having more experience of trams than we have, are also rather better at considering the needs of cyclists
I used to live in Basel, Switzerland, which has a huge on road tram network with no segregation. I saw a lot of utility riders in the city and none seemed to have a problem with the tracks - having grown up with them perhaps. I did not cycle in the city at that time, but some years later I passed through when on tour. On that occasion I was on a tricycle and believe me tram tracks are aweful. There is not space to ride alongside them, nor can you sensible straddle a single rail, and the width between rails is not much more than the width of a trike axle. I dropped a wheel into a track only once and had to stop to lift it out because I was carrying camping kit so could not simply lift the wheel without stopping. I was quite happy when I put that city behind me.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Si wrote:Even before the new city centre trams starting running in Brum a number of people have gone over on them. The local cycle training company has offered sessions to cover riding with trams, and the council has put up lots of cyclist dismount signs.. I foresee much waling and gnashing of teeth now the trams are running.

Start a guerrilla labelling campaign to stick "TRAM" over the word "CYCLIST"
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Mick F
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Mick F »

Having cycled in the royal dockyards for much of my service life, not only do you get rail lines, you get points and criss-crosses, too. Plus there's the dockside crane lines ............. and all of these were set into wet greasy cobbles and flagstones. Some train tracks crossed crane tracks as well.

It was horrendous, and many's the time that unwary cyclists have come off. I was maybe lucky but there were many times that my rear wheel went the wrong way - but I stayed on. It's the front wheels you have to watch out for. Also, if you cross a line, take it at the largest angle you can.

However, and it's a BIG however, on the streets with commuting traffic is very different to busy dockyards. In the dackyards you had to look out for lorries and forklift trucks, drunken sailors! :lol: cars, vans and all sorts of delivery vehicles ......... but at least they were all moving slowly.

In the towns, though, the traffic is unforgiving and cyclists can be intimidated to such a degree that they get forced along near the lines as opposed to being allowed away from them or cross them safely.
Mick F. Cornwall
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foxyrider
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by foxyrider »

karlt wrote:I'm all for trams. I'm not for them running in a lane cyclists will have to use and I'm not for them crossing the carriageway at stupidly shallow angles. Sheffield I am lookng at you.


+1 - 'kin Manor Top!

The art is to make sure you cross at no less than 45 degrees, the other traffic is often not keen on giving you the space tho
Convention? what's that then?
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Vorpal
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Vorpal »

There is an extensive tram network in Oslo. I like it because there is no charge to take bikes on trams, and it's absolutely fine to do so, as long as there is reasonable space (too crowded at peak times!)

In many places, the trams run on wide streets like https://www.google.no/maps/@59.9148464, ... 312!8i6656
With this arrangement, the trams stop and let people off on an island, and traffic can go around. Passengers get zebra crossings (at which Norwegian drivers are quite good about stopping).

Cyclists can use either the lane with the tram tracks, or the inside lane. Most use the inside lane, but when traffic is heavy, the tram lane is faster. The best place to cycle is between the tracks, and with a little practice, it's not hard to hop over. I've not seen any cyclists take spills, but I don't know if there are accidents reported. Maybe cyclists who aren't too sure about hopping over the tracks, avoid them. Some streets only allow cyclists and trams, and frankly, even when thee tracks cross each other a weird angles at junctions, I'd rather share with trams than cars and busses.

Some designs seem to be better than others, and the gaps between road surface and tracks seem to be smaller in Oslo than many other places that I've seen trams. Also, they don't seem to use much of that hard black plastic to fill gaps, that stuff can be quite slippery when wet, and IMO, is a poor design choice. If filling material is required, for example to reach services below road surface level, they need to have a non-slip surface.

Where trams run on roads used by all traffic, and there is only one lane in each direction, designers are faced with a problem. If they make the road wide enough to cycle easily on the inside of the tram tracks, it is a poor width for cyclists sharing with cars. That is, the road will be wide enough (between 3.0 and 4.0 metres) to encourage car drivers to share when there is isn't really enough space for safety. If they put a proper cycle lane in, they need much more space because the trams are wide (in Oslo they are either 2.5 or 2.6 metres wide). So they seem to settle for narrow lanes, which mean the best place to cycle is between the tram tracks.

Drivers' patience with cyclists goes a long way towards making it liveable. I'm sure it will be even better when they introduce the car ban. :mrgreen:
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Grandad
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Grandad »

The art is to make sure you cross at no less than 45 degrees, the other traffic is often not keen on giving you the space


Which makes them totally unsuitable for cyclists
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Well, it depends how they are installed, and what the lane markings and signs are.

I'm sure that with appropriate lane markings (to encourage cyclists) and signs (to inform all traffic) that they can be safely negotiated. I just take the lane on the approach to the area and I find that motorists in Dublin are generally much more tolerant of that than at home.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
karlt
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by karlt »

Case in point - in Sheffield at Manor Top heading North the tracks cross the lane from the right at a very shallow angle. To negotiate them, it is necessary to go to the left of the lane, then cut across the lines to the right of the lane, then return to normal riding position. Of course, as soon as you move left, a constant stream of traffic then starts overtaking you within the lane and you're buggered. I've raised it with the council but they don't give a flying one.
Grandad
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Grandad »

I've raised it with the council but they don't give a flying one

Publicly via press and social media invite some of them to join you on a ride.......during the rush hour :twisted:
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