Tram lines...

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Mick F
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Mick F »

Grandad wrote:
The art is to make sure you cross at no less than 45 degrees, the other traffic is often not keen on giving you the space


Which makes them totally unsuitable for cyclists
Which makes them totally unsuitable for certain places in certain towns and certain cites.
Not .......... makes them totally unsuitable universally.
Mick F. Cornwall
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DaveP
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by DaveP »

Really approved of the tram system in Bordeaux when we visited last October. Cheap, stress free, run late into the evening, so you can go out and get home and you can push your bike on outside rush hours
Keep meaning to try a ride on the Wolves - Brum tram service. There's one obvious difference though. Bordeaux seems to have wider streets.
The section of the tram line that I drive along most often has a line of yellow dots painted on the road so that you can see where the tram need to be - and where not to park your car. Some stretches look as if close passes might be the norm :shock:

Mind you, at least a tram isn't going to suddenly cut in on you!
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Si
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Si »

https://youtu.be/GCLgstX0jHk

that's that sorted then :wink:
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Wow - no mention of clothing at all.

Slightly concerned that "being aware of what's around you" involved stopping and only then looking around. I'd recommend looking around continuously...

Is it only me that thinks that the "cross rails at 90" needs an explanation? I mean it's sufficiently subtle that the lady involved in the OP didn't understand what had happened.
I find I can avoid dangers much more easily if I know *why* they happen.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
graymee
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by graymee »

I like this spoof video I saw earlier about the Manchester trams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... hD5eosuiOg
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irc
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by irc »

What can trams do that buses can't do? The zero emissions (at point of use) plus is negated when they are sharing the streets with other traffic, especially buses. Otherwise buses built to offer the same seating space as trams would have the advantages of being able to operate both on exclusive routes where appropriate and shared streets where appropriate. They wouldn't have needed the 3/4 of a £ billion spent on the Edinburgh system much of which was for digging up ancient streets to move utilities - not needed for bus systems.

Any minimal speed advantages for trams are due to dedicated routes. You don't need a bus running on rails to have separate routes when appropriate. Another tram speed advantage is the limited stops. Conventional city buses make the mistake of having stops so close together the bus can be stopping every couple of hundred yards. That is easily changed.

And buses don't need tramlines to cause cyclist injuries and deaths.

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Coro ... story.html
Grandad
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Grandad »

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Coro ... story.html


What are the chances of Croydon Corporation following the coroners recommendation - one in how many thousand ?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

irc wrote:What can trams do that buses can't do? The zero emissions (at point of use) plus is negated when they are sharing the streets with other traffic, especially buses. Otherwise buses built to offer the same seating space as trams would have the advantages of being able to operate both on exclusive routes where appropriate and shared streets where appropriate. They wouldn't have needed the 3/4 of a £ billion spent on the Edinburgh system much of which was for digging up ancient streets to move utilities - not needed for bus systems.

Any minimal speed advantages for trams are due to dedicated routes. You don't need a bus running on rails to have separate routes when appropriate. Another tram speed advantage is the limited stops. Conventional city buses make the mistake of having stops so close together the bus can be stopping every couple of hundred yards. That is easily changed.

And buses don't need tramlines to cause cyclist injuries and deaths.

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Coro ... story.html


I would hazard a guess that a tram is much lower rolling resistance than a bus...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Bmblbzzz »

irc wrote:What can trams do that buses can't do?

They can carry more people (or freight) at higher speed for less energy, due to the lower rolling resistance of steel wheels on steel rails; just like velodromes use polished wood rather than tarmac. Also due to not needing steering. Of course, there are disadvantages as well.
The zero emissions (at point of use) plus is negated when they are sharing the streets with other traffic, especially buses.

How is it negated? Replacing a diesel-burning bus with a zero-emissions at point of use electric tram means those diesel fumes are not emitted on to that street. Obviously the same advantages apply for an electric (or hydrogen fuelled) bus, car or lorry.
Otherwise buses built to offer the same seating space as trams would have the advantages of being able to operate both on exclusive routes where appropriate and shared streets where appropriate.

It would be very difficult to build a bus to carry as many people as a tram. It would have to be multiply-articulated; a 'super bendy' bus! One advantage of railed transport is that you can add more coaches with increase in turning circle.
They wouldn't have needed the 3/4 of a £ billion spent on the Edinburgh system much of which was for digging up ancient streets to move utilities - not needed for bus systems.

True, although the Edinburgh trams were a complete balls up due to local political reasons.
Any minimal speed advantages for trams are due to dedicated routes.

Possibly. Also to traffic laws giving them priority at junctions (though not in UK I think) and dedicated signalling even on shared routes. Electric traction, which gives better acceleration from low speeds than internal combustion engines, might also be a factor; but of course is not necessarily limited to trams.
You don't need a bus running on rails to have separate routes when appropriate.

No, you don't, but building a separate system with rails and OHLE is a pretty clear commitment. Once the rails are down, they're likely to stay down, whereas bus lanes come and go at the whim of local authorities.
Another tram speed advantage is the limited stops. Conventional city buses make the mistake of having stops so close together the bus can be stopping every couple of hundred yards. That is easily changed.

Every couple of hundred yards does sound very close. Where are they that tight? But there needs to be a balance between reducing dwell times and maintaining usefulness. A transport system that stops too infrequently is no good either. Having parallel stopping and express services is probably the way to go.
And buses don't need tramlines to cause cyclist injuries and deaths.

True.

Another point against trams is the rails can impede road maintenance and more so repair/installation of underground utilities. Coordination between departments (highway, water, etc) and private companies (cable, phones, etc) is necessary.

On the road, trams have the advantage of usually being narrower than buses.

A neglected form of transport is trolley buses. These have the advantage of electric traction with the relative flexibility of rubber tyres. It's much easier to just rig up the OHLE than install rails in the road surface. But those same rubber tyres mean increased energy costs and maintenance compared to trams, though still a lot cheaper to run than diesel buses.
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DaveP
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by DaveP »

irc wrote:What can trams do that buses can't do?


Based on my observations in Bordeaux I would have to answer "Capacity!"
Few of us would argue with the suggestion that if more people would use buses there would be fewer cars on the road so less pollution, congestion etc.
If more people used trams there would be fewer buses...
The trams have their own, often segregated, place on the roads. The same could be said for cyclists. Where all three do come together it doesn't seem to cause problems and cars in particular do seem to respect tram routes. Cyclists now - let's just say that some of them have a lot of confidence!
The city, while busy, certainly seemed to be less clogged up with traffic than London or Birmingham. It's hard not to think that the trams might be part of the reason for this. Obviously tram rails present the same risks to cyclists everywhere, but I suspect that in the less stressful streets of Bordeaux that risk might be easier to manage. Certainly most of the cyclists I noticed were wearing normal clothing and just riding their bikes rather than sprinting to the next traffic light.

Bordeaux has three tram routes crossing the city. One also crosses the river. Cunningly, they intersect just outside the main tourist office. However did they manage that then? :lol:
They operate in conjunction with what appears to be a pretty decent bus service. Your travel ticket allows you to combine tram and bus to reach your destination. That's the bit we would never manage in this country!
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bazzo
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by bazzo »

Been there got the ripped clothing and grazed arm. Just a moments loss of concentration, crossing the tram tracks on London Road Manchester. Something I had done hundreds of times before.
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foxyrider
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by foxyrider »

DaveP wrote:
irc wrote:What can trams do that buses can't do?



They operate in conjunction with what appears to be a pretty decent bus service. Your travel ticket allows you to combine tram and bus to reach your destination. That's the bit we would never manage in this country!


You sure of that? we can buy all sorts of tickets in Sheffield which allow many variants of travel depending on your needs - today I have a bus/tram ticket for one operator, but I could get an all bus, all bus + tram or even all bus + tram + local rail.

I agree that this cross ticketing is rare, it helps here that the trams are run by Stagecoach who run some of the buses.
Convention? what's that then?
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DaveP
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by DaveP »

Happy to be corrected :)
Haven't noticed this approach catching on nationwide though... 8)

I had a memorable experience in Sheffield not long after I started driving trucks. Late one Friday night I took a wrong turn and fetched up in what seemed to be a town square. Looked as if the pubs and theatres etc. had just kicked out - there were people all over - and as I looked around I spotted a number of trams - converging on me from all directions. I didn't know what to do, and ended up heading for the first dark road I could see. I ended up in Glossop instead of Huddersfield :oops:
I'd probably panic again if I went there tonight! Trams are ok, but multiple trams and a theatre crowd is a bit intimidating.
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rjb
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by rjb »

Some towns still have old railway lines in the streets. Weymouth is one example as the trains would have gone straight down to the docks. I recall frightening a following car when i crossed them at as big an angle as i could on the tandem. :lol:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.60947 ... 6656?hl=en

Plymouth were i grew up still has evidence of railway lines around the Barbican area. Why dont they remove them when they put the road surface down. :(
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Re: Tram lines...

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I don't know about the Plymouth but I think in the case of Weymouth the lines to the docks have not been officially taken out of use so cannot be removed even though they are in practice almost certainly unusable.
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