BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Carlton green
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Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

wheelyhappy99 wrote: 9 Mar 2024, 9:01pm
More importantly what are your views on the alternative ways forward that I suggested?

Arguably the better ways of reducing emissions include : reducing the need to travel; active travel; the use of public transport; and smaller, lighter and more fuel efficient vehicles.
I expect this is motherhood and apple pie stuff supported by most people on this forum, including, for the avoidance of doubt, me. Though to be clear, the smaller, lighter and more fuel efficient vehicles should, according to every report I've come across, be BEVs not ICE powered.

Reducing the need for travel is perfectly feasible if communities are designed to provide services and facilities within reach by active travel. 15 minute cities anyone? WFH helps of course, though not everyone can do that. But for 50 years proactive planning and local authority powes have been stripped away so developers are free to throw up low density 'executive' housing in car dependent locations, and the last few months have seen the current government deriding efforts to make it safer. 'War on motorists' was the last three word slogan.

Public transport outside London has been wrecked by rail privatisation and bus deregulation. Anyone recall Thatcher's remarks about bus users?

These deliberate central govt policy choices make it much harder for individuals to choose the alternatives you listed. In lower density rural or semi rural areas there is no prospect of public transport providing the varied range of services to meet residents differing needs. All the authoritative evidence is that BEVs (and I'd include electric assist bikes if the roads are safe enough, many aren't) are the least worst current alternative.
Not much too much to disagree with there though some of the other (besides London) large metropolitan areas do have relatively good public transport. Are BEV’s good? I see massive ones on the road and so I’d say they’re not really any better than a smaller petrol car and to that be ‘green’ BEV’s need to be ‘Golf’ sized (so no bigger than actually necessary). Electric assisted bikes seem to almost be the ideal BEV, in that there’s emphasis on assist and that they’re the smallest of motors and batteries.

I’m very much of the mind that the issue of commuting is tackleable and that via sensible park and ride schemes many more people can be moved out of their cars and onto public transport. This stuff really isn’t rocket science. Should homes ever be built where there is no local employment for the occupants? I’d say that it’s madness to build into new developments the need to travel long distances to places of work and likewise to services such as schools and shops. Indeed, but two generations ago a massive proportion of the population would expect to use active travel (primarily walking but some cycling too) to reach their places of work, shops and schools, etc.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
wheelyhappy99
Posts: 244
Joined: 5 Jul 2020, 11:12am

Re: BEVs

Post by wheelyhappy99 »

Are BEV’s good? I see massive ones on the road and so I’d say they’re not really any better than a smaller petrol car and to that be ‘green’ BEV’s need to be ‘Golf’ sized (so no bigger than actually necessary).
Yes there are plenty of huge Audi and Merc SUV style BEVs about, and doubtless some of the owners could manage perfectly well with something closer to an ID3. But the car industry has been pushing everything larger, heavier, more aggressively styled SUVs for years because they are more profitable. I don't believe they will change tack without legislation. But I think it's important to remember that some people do really need a larger, or perhaps more accurately, spacious vehicle. I've not seen any evidence that smaller ICE cars are preferable to larger BEVs.
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Mar 2024, 4:14pm
Carlton green wrote: 7 Mar 2024, 3:39pm
Jdsk wrote: 7 Mar 2024, 11:10am Nothing in the Budget to accelerate the migration from fossil-fuelled vehicles. And I'd guess that's it until there's a new government.
Not necessarily a bad thing, as the move to BEV’s isn’t the panacea that it’s made out to be. A better way is outlined just above.
Made out to be a panacea by whom when? I've asked for examples of this before and no-one seems to come up with any.
Clearly still none.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

"New ChargeUK Chair reveals five priorities for 2024":
https://www.fastcharge.email/p/new-char ... irect=true

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Jul 2023, 9:31am Norway has lots of EVs. I see more EVs on the streets, now, than other sorts of vehicles. This is largely due to a significant tax discount for EVs (vs ICEVs) and relatively inexpensive renewable energy. Emissions have gone down steadily the last few years, and are almost back to 2009 / 2010 levels.

Other initiatives have somewhat encouraged people into buses and trains and out of personal vehicles, mostly in the cities. While the effect is significant in the cities, overall, the result is a few percentage points, either way. Traffic (volume & distance) continues to increase year on year, with only a small hiccough in 2020.

I honestly hate to think what it would be like without these initiatives, but it is clear to me that with everything they have done, yet more extreme measures are needed.

Regarding charging at night or during excess capacity times, I'd honestly rather see an investment in storage technologies and grid balancing. We have spent a couple of generations subsidising energy for personal vehicles. Energy is too valuable to push around a couple tonnes of metal and plastic to go buy milk & bread.
NB date.

"How did Norway become the electric car superpower? Oil money, civil disobedience – and Morten from a-ha":
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... -from-a-ha

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

Latest scandal from the Torygraph....

A test by What Car magazine has revealed that the official figures for the range of electric cars over-estimates their real-life range by around a third. Vehicles were driven around a test track in Bedfordshire until they ran out of juice.

The result? A Lexus UX 300e (official range 273 miles) managed just 170 miles before slowing to a halt – 37.9 per cent less than advertised. A Volkswagen ID7 Pro (official range 383 miles) managed 254 and a Volvo XC40 Recharge (official range 331 miles) managed 252. Moreover, these are all supposedly long-range vehicles which retail at over £50,000 new.

Echos of the emissions scandal...can you believe anything manufacturers claim?

Al
Last edited by al_yrpal on 13 Mar 2024, 10:51am, edited 1 time in total.
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5818
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: BEVs

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 9:26am Latest scandal from the Torygraph....

A test by What Car magazine has revealed that the official figures for the range of electric cars over-estimates their real-life range by around a third. Vehicles were driven around a test track in Bedfordshire until they ran out of juice.

The result? A Lexus UX 300e (official range 273 miles) managed just 170 miles before slowing to a halt – 37.9 per cent less than advertised. A Volkswagen ID7 Pro (official range 383 miles) managed 254 and a Volvo XC40 Recharge (official range 331 miles) managed 252. Moreover, these are all supposedly long-range vehicles which retail at over £50,000 new.

Al
Telegraph article, though paywalled. Nice, balanced headline... "The great electric car scandal is only just beginning"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... of%20juice.

Description of the various standards for range

https://insideevs.com/features/343231/h ... wltp-nedc/

What car article

https://www.whatcar.com/news/inaccuracy ... sed/n26630

Note "winter range". It's hardly a secret that EVs have lower range in winter.

Telegraph really is becoming a parody of itself.
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 10:21am
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 9:26am Latest scandal from the Torygraph....

A test by What Car magazine has revealed that the official figures for the range of electric cars over-estimates their real-life range by around a third. Vehicles were driven around a test track in Bedfordshire until they ran out of juice.

The result? A Lexus UX 300e (official range 273 miles) managed just 170 miles before slowing to a halt – 37.9 per cent less than advertised. A Volkswagen ID7 Pro (official range 383 miles) managed 254 and a Volvo XC40 Recharge (official range 331 miles) managed 252. Moreover, these are all supposedly long-range vehicles which retail at over £50,000 new.
Telegraph article, though paywalled. Nice, balanced headline... "The great electric car scandal is only just beginning"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... of%20juice.

Description of the various standards for range

https://insideevs.com/features/343231/h ... wltp-nedc/

What car article

https://www.whatcar.com/news/inaccuracy ... sed/n26630

Note "winter range". It's hardly a secret that EVs have lower range in winter.

Telegraph really is becoming a parody of itself.
Thanks, both.

The details of the test and results are in the linked What Car? article.

There's a lot of information there, but there's no scandal.

And thanks to everyone who has shared their own experience in this thread.

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

Emissions scandal, and now this? Manufacturers need to be honest about their products, top marks for What Car for these revalations.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Vorpal
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Re: BEVs

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Mar 2024, 3:02pm
NB date.

"How did Norway become the electric car superpower? Oil money, civil disobedience – and Morten from a-ha":
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... -from-a-ha

Jonathan
Nice article. I guess it was inspired by a shorter version of the story on BBC Scotland https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001dvbc

Apparently the story is fairly well-known in Norway. I wasn't aware.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Vorpal
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Re: BEVs

Post by Vorpal »

al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 10:55am Emissions scandal, and now this? Manufacturers need to be honest about their products, top marks for What Car for these revalations.

Al

Should they be honest about the range in hilly conditions? Flat? Winter? Summer? Rural driving? City? Motorway? Italy? Sweden? England? Wales? Aggressive driver? Careful driver?

Or should they maybe use a standard test of some sort?

While the manufacturer's published ranges are optimistic, I don't know how else they should determine range than the prescribed (and sometimes legally required) tests. It's no different that way than fuel economy.They use published processes to determine the range. They also advise buyers that the range is reduced by cold weather. The 1/3rd reduction for winter range found by What Car is typical.

Not revelations.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 11:08am
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 10:55am Emissions scandal, and now this? Manufacturers need to be honest about their products, top marks for What Car for these revalations.
Should they be honest about the range in hilly conditions? Flat? Winter? Summer? Rural driving? City? Motorway? Italy? Sweden? England? Wales? Aggressive driver? Careful driver?

Or should they maybe use a standard test of some sort?

While the manufacturer's published ranges are optimistic, I don't know how else they should determine range than the prescribed (and sometimes legally required) tests. It's no different that way than fuel economy.They use published processes to determine the range. They also advise buyers that the range is reduced by cold weather. The 1/3rd reduction for winter range found by What Car is typical.

Not revelations.
Agreed.

And often discussed in this very thread!
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... range+bevs

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 11:08am
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 10:55am Emissions scandal, and now this? Manufacturers need to be honest about their products, top marks for What Car for these revalations.
Should they be honest about the range in hilly conditions? Flat? Winter? Summer? Rural driving? City? Motorway? Italy? Sweden? England? Wales? Aggressive driver? Careful driver?

Or should they maybe use a standard test of some sort?

While the manufacturer's published ranges are optimistic, I don't know how else they should determine range than the prescribed (and sometimes legally required) tests. It's no different that way than fuel economy.They use published processes to determine the range. They also advise buyers that the range is reduced by cold weather. The 1/3rd reduction for winter range found by What Car is typical.

Not revelations.
And helped by the recent ASA rulings on descriptions of range in advertisements, upthread.

Jonathan
Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

Vorpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 11:08am
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 10:55am Emissions scandal, and now this? Manufacturers need to be honest about their products, top marks for What Car for these revalations.

Al

Should they be honest about the range in hilly conditions? Flat? Winter? Summer? Rural driving? City? Motorway? Italy? Sweden? England? Wales? Aggressive driver? Careful driver?

Or should they maybe use a standard test of some sort?

While the manufacturer's published ranges are optimistic, I don't know how else they should determine range than the prescribed (and sometimes legally required) tests. It's no different that way than fuel economy.They use published processes to determine the range. They also advise buyers that the range is reduced by cold weather. The 1/3rd reduction for winter range found by What Car is typical.

Not revelations.
I see your logic yet is it not flawed? Comparing fossil fuel powered cars with battery ones only works well if the capabilities stay near the same over their whole operating range. I suspect that fossil fuel cars do use more fuel in winter (ie. give less mileage) but don’t suffer as much as BEV’s do. Marketing people and others overlook such differences and the trying to be informed customer can be mislead, surely that’s something that needs to be better considered and noted.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 11:20am
Vorpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 11:08am
al_yrpal wrote: 13 Mar 2024, 10:55am Emissions scandal, and now this? Manufacturers need to be honest about their products, top marks for What Car for these revalations.
Should they be honest about the range in hilly conditions? Flat? Winter? Summer? Rural driving? City? Motorway? Italy? Sweden? England? Wales? Aggressive driver? Careful driver?

Or should they maybe use a standard test of some sort?

While the manufacturer's published ranges are optimistic, I don't know how else they should determine range than the prescribed (and sometimes legally required) tests. It's no different that way than fuel economy.They use published processes to determine the range. They also advise buyers that the range is reduced by cold weather. The 1/3rd reduction for winter range found by What Car is typical.

Not revelations.
I see your logic yet is it not flawed? Comparing fossil fuel powered cars with battery ones only works well if the capabilities stay near the same over their whole operating range. I suspect that fossil fuel cars do use more fuel in winter (ie. give less mileage) but don’t suffer as much as BEV’s do. Marketing people and others overlook such differences and the trying to be informed customer can be mislead, surely that’s something that needs to be better considered and noted.
I don't think that the logic is flawed.

Please could you give examples of current (!) marketing that you think is misleading.

Thanks

Jonathan
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