Air Pollution - Will They Act Now?

[Pebble]

This thread is doing wonders for my deep seated hypochondria of my respiratory health. A history of Asbestos (monkey dung variety) and heavy smoking already have me imagining all sorts of horrors, even though my doc tells me there is nothing wrong with me, and above average spiral tests which he would expect for a cyclist, of course I believe non of it.
And now I read this thread. Well.... brought up in a traditional minors house with a coal burning fire as the only heat, then married life which have mostly been with open wood burning fires. Although the last 24 years it is a modern centrally heated house with the wood fire just a luxury for 3 or 4 hours on cold winters nights. I love my open fire (esp since I get free wood) , seriously, just love cooking myself in front of it after a long cold winters day on the road.

[pwa]

A problem with many wood burning stoves is not just the exhaust but the air supply: you need one. This usually means in a British house that cold air is entering the room to feed the stove. On its way it takes some heat with it. The same problem applies to open fireplaces. When I have lived in houses with such an open vent I have sealed it. British houses are generally leaky; they even have trickle vents! I have seen these only once in Germany.

The only way to make a building very energy efficient is to seal it and use a mechanical ventilation with heat exchange system. This is standard in a Passivhaus. It rules out simple free-standing wood burners.

One inefficiency I see on some homes fitted with a flue is that it exits the building immediately behind the stove, with a long vertical flue section on the outside of the building. That wastes heat that could be used within the building. Our own flue goes up the pre-existing chimney stack, in the middle of the house, and after a short while you can feel warmth on walls within the house that form part of that stack. It is a gentle warming that continues even after the wood burner has gone out.

[francovendee]

Ours does the same, stainless liner inside the flue. I made sure at the top it was sealed with cement so the heat inside the flue transfers to the walls. If we get a cold spell and run the woodburner most of the day (rare) then the bedroom wall is warm to touch by the evening, it stays that way for most of the night.

[PDQ Mobile]

I love my open fire (esp since I get free wood) , seriously, just love cooking myself in front of it after a long cold winters day on the road.

Wood burnt on open fire is not as efficient by a long chalk as within a closed space.
There are a couple of reasons for this.

One is that really dry wood is a volatile fuel.
A huge amount of the available heat energy is in the form of gaseous combustion, think impure methane etc, the heat from these hot flaming gases are for the large part lost up the chimney from an open fire.

The second reason is that higher (enclosed) combustion temps increase efficiency and conveniently reduce particulate pollutants. Enough air required.
(You could also cook on a closed stove.)

The interesting thermal mass issue already discussed at length in the thread (or the "heat in the home" one)

As for burning MDF and treated woods (again upthread), a horror and rightly subject to fines etc, though badly policed.
A bit of education in that area sadly lacking in the UK.

[Pebble]

I love my open fire (esp since I get free wood) , seriously, just love cooking myself in front of it after a long cold winters day on the road.

Wood burnt on open fire is not as efficient by a long chalk as within a closed space.

never said it was

[PDQ Mobile]

It wasn't meant as a criticism, I had intended a footnote about the delights of an open fire!
But forgot.

However as a 100% wood fuelled household one always tries to be as efficient (and clean) as possible.
It is a lot of wood annually, so 30- 50% less is significant.

[plancashire]

It wasn't meant as a criticism, I had intended a footnote about the delights of an open fire!
But forgot.
...

On Saturday I was in a restaurant right next to an open fire. Delightful! I felt no draughts and no heat. It was a screen standing in the fireplace showing a video loop of an open fire.

[Biospace]

More gloom from the Guardian with respect to wood stoves.

Something I note is that the quality of installations, stove design and maintenance, the way they're used, local air behaviour and the amount of chimney draw can all affect internal air quality. I've been in some very smoky-smelling, dusty homes with stoves and others which have been felt far cleaner than those without any wood burning.

I'm not convinced with the article's scientific approach, "As a group, people with central heating also had an increased risk. This was thought to be due to the large number of Irish homes with central heating who also used open fires for secondary heating" - was there clear evidence it was mostly the Irish who were at increased risk with CH?

Additionally, has anyone quantified particulates in homes with dogs vs none?

I can't help but feel carpets and stoves in the same room/same floor aren't the best bedfellows. Or is it possible they trap particulates until vacuumed, which would otherwise remain in circulation?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... od-burning

[pwa]

More gloom from the Guardian with respect to wood stoves.

Something I note is that the quality of installations, stove design and maintenance, the way they're used, local air behaviour and the amount of chimney draw can all affect internal air quality. I've been in some very smoky-smelling, dusty homes with stoves and others which have been felt far cleaner than those without any wood burning.

I'm not convinced with the article's scientific approach, "As a group, people with central heating also had an increased risk. This was thought to be due to the large number of Irish homes with central heating who also used open fires for secondary heating" - was there clear evidence it was mostly the Irish who were at increased risk with CH?

Additionally, has anyone quantified particulates in homes with dogs vs none?

I can't help but feel carpets and stoves in the same room/same floor aren't the best bedfellows. Or is it possible they trap particulates until vacuumed, which would otherwise remain in circulation?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... od-burning

That article is all over the place and raises more questions than it answers. But regarding Irish homes burning wood and coal, I have been in a few Irish homes that have been definitely affected by smoke from open fires or faulty stoves and flues. Open fires don't give off much heat, either, so I don't get why anyone would want one. I spent last evening in somebody else's home, with a lovely modern log burning stove with a crystal clear glass front, and no tell-tale whiff of wood smoke, all evening. You can allow fumes into your home if you burn wood, but it isn't compulsory or inevitable that you do it to a significant degree.

[Biospace]

...
I can't help but feel carpets and stoves in the same room/same floor aren't the best bedfellows. Or is it possible they trap particulates until vacuumed, which would otherwise remain in circulation?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... od-burning

That article is all over the place and raises more questions than it answers. But regarding Irish homes burning wood and coal, I have been in a few Irish homes that have been definitely affected by smoke from open fires or faulty stoves and flues.
...
You can allow fumes into your home if you burn wood, but it isn't compulsory or inevitable that you do it to a significant degree.

Yes, I agree. The pollution from wood burning stoves has grown as energy bills have increased, it hasn't helped that they've been promoted as an environmentally friendly way of heating the home - which it is for some, less so for others.

I've witnessed someone in a modern home with typical minimal ventilation, but with the obligatory vent installed with the stove allowing an icy blast directly into their living room. The stove was running with the vents open ("we like to see flames") so very possibly resulting in a net cooling of the centrally heated house.

I fear this is an all too common scenario, with food wrappers and contaminated wood adding to the problem, I hear of more situations in which people are complaining to EH about smoke nuisance aggravating asthma and other conditions. If they don't fall out of fashion for those who see them as a lifestyle accessory, with ever greater population densities there is likely to be legislation mooted.

[pwa]

...
I can't help but feel carpets and stoves in the same room/same floor aren't the best bedfellows. Or is it possible they trap particulates until vacuumed, which would otherwise remain in circulation?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... od-burning

That article is all over the place and raises more questions than it answers. But regarding Irish homes burning wood and coal, I have been in a few Irish homes that have been definitely affected by smoke from open fires or faulty stoves and flues.
...
You can allow fumes into your home if you burn wood, but it isn't compulsory or inevitable that you do it to a significant degree.

Yes, I agree. The pollution from wood burning stoves has grown as energy bills have increased, it hasn't helped that they've been promoted as an environmentally friendly way of heating the home - which it is for some, less so for others.

I've witnessed someone in a modern home with typical minimal ventilation, but with the obligatory vent installed with the stove allowing an icy blast directly into their living room. The stove was running with the vents open ("we like to see flames") so very possibly resulting in a net cooling of the centrally heated house.

I fear this is an all too common scenario, with food wrappers and contaminated wood adding to the problem, I hear of more situations in which people are complaining to EH about smoke nuisance aggravating asthma and other conditions. If they don't fall out of fashion for those who see them as a lifestyle accessory, with ever greater population densities there is likely to be legislation mooted.

I agree that population density is an important factor. Some of the worst cases I have heard of seem to be where (not in the UK) there are whole towns where wood burning is the main source of heating. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I know of isolated houses surrounded by countryside, where any fumes are dissipated long before they can reach neighbours. I lean towards the "smokeless zone" approach myself.

[mjr]

Open fires don't give off much heat, either, so I don't get why anyone would want one.

You don't know anyone building the fire right, then. I'm not in favour, but they can give off a real glow, although loads of heat goes straight up the chimney.

[Pebble]

That article is all over the place and raises more questions than it answers. But regarding Irish homes burning wood and coal, I have been in a few Irish homes that have been definitely affected by smoke from open fires or faulty stoves and flues.
...
You can allow fumes into your home if you burn wood, but it isn't compulsory or inevitable that you do it to a significant degree.

Yes, I agree. The pollution from wood burning stoves has grown as energy bills have increased, it hasn't helped that they've been promoted as an environmentally friendly way of heating the home - which it is for some, less so for others.

I've witnessed someone in a modern home with typical minimal ventilation, but with the obligatory vent installed with the stove allowing an icy blast directly into their living room. The stove was running with the vents open ("we like to see flames") so very possibly resulting in a net cooling of the centrally heated house.

I fear this is an all too common scenario, with food wrappers and contaminated wood adding to the problem, I hear of more situations in which people are complaining to EH about smoke nuisance aggravating asthma and other conditions. If they don't fall out of fashion for those who see them as a lifestyle accessory, with ever greater population densities there is likely to be legislation mooted.

I agree that population density is an important factor. Some of the worst cases I have heard of seem to be where (not in the UK) there are whole towns where wood burning is the main source of heating. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I know of isolated houses surrounded by countryside, where any fumes are dissipated long before they can reach neighbours. I lean towards the "smokeless zone" approach myself.

I'm all for smokeless zones too, I'm the top of the hill with prevailing winds blowing over vast acres of farmland, my near neighbours both burn wood, so I doub't my few hours an evening on the colder winters days is significant.

This is quite funny (sorry twitter link) Tory Mayoral Candidate for Manchester is campaigning against clean air...
https://twitter.com/LauraEvansTeam/stat ... 2362319110
pledges "we will not have any of these clean air zones in manchester"

[reohn2]

........This is quite funny (sorry twitter link) Tory Mayoral Candidate for Manchester is campaigning against clean air...
https://twitter.com/LauraEvansTeam/stat ... 2362319110
pledges "we will not have any of these clean air zones in manchester"

She's an idiot like the rest of the Tories who've ruined this country!

[ANTONISH]

........This is quite funny (sorry twitter link) Tory Mayoral Candidate for Manchester is campaigning against clean air...
https://twitter.com/LauraEvansTeam/stat ... 2362319110
pledges "we will not have any of these clean air zones in manchester"

She's an idiot like the rest of the Tories who've ruined this country!

I note that there is a row of parked cars in the background all partly on the pavement - presumably she isn't against that.
I wonder if her car is among them?