Helmet compulsion as a deterrent

[DaveReading]

Actually it is being discussed that with the prevalence of new E bikes and the (******* scooter riders) the law will change to make helmets on all bikes compulsory in the UK

You're going to have to state your source of information at this point because from what the rest of us have read from government sources the current position is that the helmet law will put people off from cycling which will have a negative effect on the net health of the population with the concluding statement that as a result more people will die as a result of not getting enough exercise than the possibility of those who will be saved through helmet use.

Yes, who is discussing it, please?

Jonathan

In some pub somewhere, presumably ...

[a.twiddler]

As I understand it, if a trike conversion was based on a car, eg Reliant three wheeler, it requires seat belts but not a helmet despite having no bodywork, but if the trike conversion was based on a motorcycle, then helmets are required.

That's not the case - their is no requirement to wear a helmet if you ride a trike. It's due to the way the helmet laws were drafted. The legislators have their heads so far up their bums, that the idea of trikes never occurred to them.
When it was eventually discovered, they covered themselves by saying as trikes made up less than 1% of motorised traffic, it wasn't worth the energy to amend

As I understand it, if a trike conversion was based on a car, eg Reliant three wheeler, it requires seat belts but not a helmet despite having no bodywork, but if the trike conversion was based on a motorcycle, then helmets are required.......

If that's the law no one's either abiding by it or enforcing it!

Hmm. Interesting. I had this information from a Reliant trike owner at a motorcycle gathering years ago. It was unusual as most trikes I'd seen were bike based, with a rear end conversion kit. It did have a "Q" plate as I dimly recall. I had no reason to disbelieve him at the time so took him at his word and I didn't independently verify the info. I wonder if he'd had bother with the "seatbelts if fitted must be used" clause as it was mostly a Reliant Regal without the body. It wasn't particularly pretty. I was more interested in sidecar outfits at the time myself but somehow the information, or misinformation, seems to have stayed with me. Forum member dispenses duff information shock horror!

[cycle tramp]

Hmm. Interesting. I had this information from a Reliant trike owner at a motorcycle gathering years ago. It was unusual as most trikes I'd seen were bike based, with a rear end conversion kit. It did have a "Q" plate as I dimly recall. I had no reason to disbelieve him at the time so took him at his word and I didn't independently verify the info. I wonder if he'd had bother with the "seatbelts if fitted must be used" clause as it was mostly a Reliant Regal without the body. It wasn't particularly pretty. I was more interested in sidecar outfits at the time myself but somehow the information, or misinformation, seems to have stayed with me. Forum member dispenses duff information shock horror!

No worries , I've dished out plenty of duff information during my time here! The only reason I know, is spending too much time as a teenager reading Back Street Heroes...

To be fair I've also seen trikes fitted with seat belts... I guess it's down to the builder and how they view risk - if there was a collision between the trike and another vehicle- is it safer to be strapped in or perhaps be thrown clear?

[a.twiddler]

I was discussing it with the Police and MP as press

Do I Need to Wear a Helmet on an Electric Bike?
If you were wondering if wearing a helmet is a legal requirement while riding an electric bike, then the simple answer is: no.

Just the same with a regular non-motorised bike, UK law does not enforce cyclists to wear helmets while riding a bike. However in some countries, such as Australia, it is a legal requirement to wear a helmet while riding a bike.

This is why the discussions are being held

However, if your e-bike has a throttle, being that you actually have a motorbike legally, you will need to wear an appropriate helmet that is in fitting with the current laws.

But overall, although it’s not enforced by law, it is always a good idea to wear a helmet while riding a bike.

I assume all those opposers are happy for children to not wear them, 5, 10 years etc ? YES or NO

This and other posts, and no I will not be drawn into a protracted debate, sorry and thank you

https://discerningcyclist.com/electric-bike-laws-uk/

https://swov.nl/en/fact/bicycle-helmets ... -mandatory


PRESS

So what you are saying then, is that there aren't actually new discussions based on new information taking place at any government level, but a promotion piece by a local MP involving local police?

I'm not a smoker, but I can appreciate the effect that ever increasing restrictions have had on those who smoke. I can also appreciate the effects of smoking on the health of those who choose to smoke and those around them, and the well funded campaigns of the interests of the tobacco industry to initially suppress and eventually attempt to discredit the incontrovertible evidence of the harm that tobacco does.

It no doubt suits the tobacco lobby to blame smoking bans for the demise of so many pubs and indeed that must play a part but It's more likely that cheap alcohol from other sources and the massive availability of home entertainment is in there too. Change occurs for a variety of reasons, and things are never as simple as you think.

There is no simple yes/no answer to cycle helmets though. It remains a matter of personal choice while there remains no compelling evidence either way despite years of research, of varying quality, into them.

Helmets for e scooters (technically a motor vehicle) and e motorbikes (again a motor vehicle) presumably have to comply with established standards for motorcycles, along with the other requirements of a motor vehicle.

As in the article to which you linked, pedal cycles and ebikes are another category entirely with no requirement to use a helmet unless from choice. I think we all knew pretty much all the information in it already, including the ebike stuff, though it's always useful to have a refresher.

[reohn2]

Hmm. Interesting. I had this information from a Reliant trike owner at a motorcycle gathering years ago. It was unusual as most trikes I'd seen were bike based, with a rear end conversion kit. It did have a "Q" plate as I dimly recall. I had no reason to disbelieve him at the time so took him at his word and I didn't independently verify the info. I wonder if he'd had bother with the "seatbelts if fitted must be used" clause as it was mostly a Reliant Regal without the body. It wasn't particularly pretty. I was more interested in sidecar outfits at the time myself but somehow the information, or misinformation, seems to have stayed with me. Forum member dispenses duff information shock horror!

I was fairly sure it wasn't fact only because I've seen quite a few motorcycle/Beetle converions or full motorcycle conversions being ridden by helmetless riders/drivers.
I can make a howler as good as the next wo/man

[Jules59]

What defines a trike as opposed to a motorbike and sidecar, both have 3 wheels ?

I dont know about wearing helmets or seat belts whilst riding a 3-wheeler but one similar to this came past me with a passenger ejector seat

[a.twiddler]

What defines a trike as opposed to a motorbike and sidecar, both have 3 wheels ?

I dont know about wearing helmets or seat belts whilst riding a 3-wheeler but one similar to this came past me with a passenger ejector seat
Screenshot 2023-07-22 224834.jpg

A traditional motorcycle and sidecar outfit is technically just that. Both the outfits I had were originally solo motorcycles to which with some advice and assistance from friends I attached suitable sidecars. It becomes a non leaning asymmetric vehicle, with the toe -in of the sidecar wheel carefully set up to give a neutral feel to the steering on normally cambered roads. It becomes a completely different beast and to drive it your responses need to be re learned. You have all the familiar motorcycle controls but can roll up at the traffic lights and stop with your feet up. You can turn round in your own length, ride for impressive distances with the sidecar wheel in the air, and perform tight manoevres.
UK sidecars are fitted on the left.

There were no restrictions to having a righthand sidecar until 1987 when it had to be fitted to the left. Prior to this you could import sidecar-ready bikes such as MZs, Jawa/CZs, Enfields, or Russian clones of older model BMWs, some of which had optional 2 wheel drive and reverse gear if they came with the sidecar fitted. By that time, BMW themselves had gone upmarket and didn't recommend fitting a sidecar. Just about any modern manufacturer voids their warranty if you fit a sidecar, but people do anyway, usually to bikes well out of warranty. A sidecar outfit can be a useful practical vehicle as well as being pretty agile in snow and mud where heavier cars get stuck.

My first sidecar outfit was sold on when we got a second car despite the kids' protests (they absolutely loved it) and a subsequent owner separated the sidecar and rode it as a bike. The second one was separated from the sidecar as someone wanted the bike but not the chair.

I have hankered after a trike but never managed to buy one. The most common type is one with a rear axle kit with a differential to two rear wheels, an easier option I would think than converting a car chassis. Probably easier to ride than a bike with sidecar, not so useful for shopping or carting your gear about. Older ones might have used VW Beetle chassis with a motorcycle front end.A motorcycle based trike gives more of a motorcycle experience, and from a chap who I know locally, seems popular with riders who can't manage two wheels any more. I think trikes tend to be more biased towards the custom type market, as I never see them in the winter when you would think the extra wheel would help with grip.

Trikes I think may need a car or a bike licence depending on which vehicle category they originated in, while you could ride a sidecar outfit on a full motorbike licence. You couldn't ride a sidecar outfit on a car licence. Somebody will be along soon with more information, I'm sure. There's a lot of historical baggage due to the changes in car and motorcycle licences over the years. The selling point of such things as bubble cars and Reliants used to be that you could drive them without passing a car test but then you could drive a Reliant three wheeler on a car licence but not a motorcycle.

As referenced up thread, no helmet needed on a trike, definitely needed on the motorcycle, but not in the sidecar.

[pjclinch]

But overall, although it’s not enforced by law, it is always a good idea to wear a helmet while riding a bike.

Though you state this as a universal certainty it isn't that simple. It's not clearly an advantage for all individuals in all contexts.

I assume all those opposers are happy for children to not wear them, 5, 10 years etc ? YES or NO

You need to be clear about what you mean by "opposer".
I certainly oppose compulsory helmet legislation, and I'm not happy with people going out of their way to recommend or pressure people in to wearing them short of law based on flimsy premises, but as should be pretty obvious from my profile image showing me wearing a helmet on an off-road unicycle, I don't oppose helmets themselves or people choosing to wear them for themselves or those in their care.

Am I happy for kids to not wear them?
Yes. Back in the day (my day, 70s, early 80s) it was normal for kids to get out a lot and play on bikes. We didn't have helmets because they weren't A Thing back then, and I don't remember any of my peers having a nasty head injury, though we certainly had our share of "unplanned dismounts", just as we fell over in playgrounds and hurt ourselves, including banging our heads from time to time.
Here's a pic of my kids cycling to their primary school back in their day, not that long past, when my wife and I let them choose for themselves (they had helmets they used for racing, so it wasn't like we effectively removed their choice by not giving them helmets).

(FWIW, one day my son came off on ice and hit his head. As he was close to school he did exactly what he'd have done had he fallen and hit his head playing in the playground at break-time: he went to the school office where he got some TLC and a sticker and a form letter to take home)

You'd do well to read the child-centric discussion of helmets in https://timrgill.files.wordpress.com/20 ... ill-05.pdf, a consultancy piece on child cycling for a children's welfare charity with an extensive and well written Annex on helmets. The effective conclusion is that it's hard to draw a hard conclusion, and the case for recommending or requiring their use has not been properly made.

This and other posts, and no I will not be drawn into a protracted debate, sorry and thank you

If you come to a forum where it's about debate, and refuse to engage in debate to defend your thoughts, then everyone else has a good excuse to ignore your thoughts as indefensible.

Pete.

[mjr]

I was discussing it with the Police and MP as press

Do I Need to Wear a Helmet on an Electric Bike?
If you were wondering if wearing a helmet is a legal requirement while riding an electric bike, then the simple answer is: no.

Just the same with a regular non-motorised bike, UK law does not enforce cyclists to wear helmets while riding a bike. However in some countries, such as Australia, it is a legal requirement to wear a helmet while riding a bike.

This is why the discussions are being held

However, if your e-bike has a throttle, being that you actually have a motorbike legally, you will need to wear an appropriate helmet that is in fitting with the current laws.

But overall, although it’s not enforced by law, it is always a good idea to wear a helmet while riding a bike.

I assume all those opposers are happy for children to not wear them, 5, 10 years etc ? YES or NO

This and other posts, and no I will not be drawn into a protracted debate, sorry and thank you

https://discerningcyclist.com/electric-bike-laws-uk/

https://swov.nl/en/fact/bicycle-helmets ... -mandatory


PRESS

Much of that is untrue. Some of it is opinion. https://www.nuj.org.uk/about-us/rules-a ... nduct.html says a journalist "Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair.
Does her/his utmost to correct harmful inaccuracies.
Differentiates between fact and opinion."

The above post breaches those three of the first four points. I urge its author to correct it, if their NUJ card is real.

[Stevek76]

That 'discerningcyclist' site seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis. Claims of stylish everyday cycling and a lycra free zone and is then babbling on about helmets. I suspect it's being further confused by trying to be international given references to ebikes >250W

Though as far as the law goes, if the rozzers take an interest in someone on a throttled actually an electric motorcycle then lack of helmet is going to be quite low on the list of offences...

[cycle tramp]

I assume all those opposers are happy for children to not wear them, 5, 10 years etc ? YES or NO

This and other posts, and no I will not be drawn into a protracted debate

Actually what I would be happy about is for those children who do ride, to think about the issue and decide for themselves. It's called encouraging people to make an informed decision...
It's important because one day they will be asked to vote as to who leads the country and may even be part of some political or campaigning group..
Blindly following rules has never done any country any good, just ask Poland....

However as you've previously stated you will not be drawn into a protracted debate in regards to this issue, I do wonder if this is due to the fact that your position of supporting the compulsory wearing of helmets is indefensible....

[cycle tramp]

That 'discerningcyclist' site seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis. Claims of stylish everyday cycling and a lycra free zone and is then babbling on about helmets. I suspect it's being further confused by trying to be international given references to ebikes >250W

Though as far as the law goes, if the rozzers take an interest in someone on a throttled actually an electric motorcycle then lack of helmet is going to be quite low on the list of offences...

Having read some of the site, it reminds me of 'ladybird, my first book about electric bikes'

[pjclinch]

Actually what I would be happy about is for those children who do ride, to think about the issue and decide for themselves. It's called encouraging people to make an informed decision...

I don't think it's realistic to expect informed decisions from toddlers... But it is important that by the time they run in to extensive social pressure as they get towards teenage years and high school they can see more options to choose from than "if you ride a bike you must wear a helmet, end of discussion", whether that's from the actual law of the land or law of the household.
Not a problem for those happy in them, but a reason to give up cycling for those that aren't.

Pete

[maximus meridius]

Yes. Back in the day (my day, 70s, early 80s) it was normal for kids to get out a lot and play on bikes. We didn't have helmets because they weren't A Thing back then...

They weren't, were they? "My day" was probably a bit more early 70s. I cycled, a bit, as a youngster. Then started again decades later, i.e. now.

What happened in the meantime? Thinking back to when I was a nipper I can't remember helmets. At all. Ever. When, or how, did it change?

[Nearholmer]

From what I can remember, helmets other than “hairnets” for racers, began to become available in the UK sometime in the mid/late 1980s. IIRC, I first bought one when I moved from riding ‘sports tourers’ to an explicitly off-road hybrid in 1991, and it was what would probably now be thought of as a BMX or skateboard helmet (it actually looked vaguely like a WW2 paratrooper’s helmet) although I think there were some lighter, more ‘roadie’ ones around by then too.