Is 250w enough power for modest speed up steep hills

[peterb]

I absolutely agree with C.J.'s post above. I was just going to add to mine.
I said 'The important part is being able to get up the local hills at all.'
That is true for many riders, but even more important is that ebikes should cater for those with special difficulties; such as Chris's wife's issues that started this thread and the other difficulties Chris mentioned in his last post.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want the regulations eased in favour of greater power/speed. AIUI, no-one is legally prevented from getting an electrically powered motorbike - helmet, reg plates and insurance notwithstanding. This can be used on the road and would allow anyone to "keep up". Variations on the motorbike would allow for other levels of fitness and (dis)ability. Of course, plenty of motorcyclists have objections to helmet wearing but that is a separate issue.

So, again AIUI, the main issue appears to be the right to use an electrically powered bike on paths where they would not normally be allowed (as opposed to the road). So the question then has to be, why have cycle paths.

Which leaves us with hills and for which we have the answer of a fully road-legal (but perhaps low-powered) electric motorcycle.

I don't blame anyone for wanting the extra power (I take the train or drive my car) but I don't understand the issue with motorbike regulations (unless people are arguing for not having to have car insurance, driving tests etc etc. The current rule (250W/15mph) seems a rather generous allowance.

I don't believe CJ started this thread, perhaps you are confusing it with the 'starting on hills ' thread. However I agree that e-bikes should cater for those with special difficulties - I would class myself as one of them as I can no longer walk very far, even on the level, without cramping pain bringing me to a halt, and cannot ride my un-assisted bikes more than just a few flat miles without similar pain - hence the ebike. Surgery is possible but carries the risk of amputation. I would still be riding my other bikes otherwise. I still consider myself to be a cyclist. As a cyclist yourself Howden I would expect you to understand, that's why I won't be considering an electric motorbike.

[Jdsk]

"Ministers to consult on doubling the legal wattage of electric bike motors":
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/f ... ike-motors

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

"Ministers to consult on doubling the legal wattage of electric bike motors":
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/f ... ike-motors

Jonathan

Thanks, an interesting article. I note that the cycle industry has reservations about shifting from the existing limit and that the reasons for the consultation are unclear. Personally I’d prefer to stay as is on the power levels.

[brianleach]

Personally I’d prefer to stay as is on the power levels.

+ 1

At least whilst we still have the mish mash of shared use paths. They would be an unpleasant experience for rider and pedestrian with more powerful bikes and the publicity would all be bad leading I fear to unnecessary restrictions.

[Vorpal]

PH I just had an interesting thought re your Bosch 250w motor, is the 250w a continuous or peak rating?
As maybe the peak power is much more than 250w but VxA averaged out over a hour to get around the 250w limit.
And people like Bafang are being honest and saying that there 500w rigs are a continuous rating.

Just a thought, comments welcome.
BTW friend in Switzerland is big into ebike's and looking at there legislation ebike are skill/age limited not power, I guess they have hills

They have adopted the legislation defined by the EU. E-bikes are only allowed pedal assist up to 25 kph. However, they have a class of 'fast e-bikes' that are legally mopeds, and require registration and a driving licence with at least class M. The riders must wear helmets and have an e-bike vignette.

I theory, riders of fast e-bikes can only use bike paths & pedestrian areas where mopeds are not allowed if they turn the assistance off. I don't think that this is well enforced.

[a.twiddler]

When I saw this thread resurrected I thought, here we go again.

But then:- What has led to the consultation? What vested interests will benefit? Is it based on more "not like the EU" doctrine? There's a danger that ebikes will be pushed out of their current status if the line between ebikes as an assisted bicycle with the freedoms that entails, and emopeds which are a powered road vehicle, becomes even more blurred. The cry for more power, more power, from some quarters is understandable but it's definitely a case of "be careful what you wish for" once you get MPs involved, many of whom might not understand the nuances of the situation, or have their own agenda, so that you end up with not quite the legislation that you hoped for, together with other restrictions that you didn't expect.

And furthermore, who is going to enforce any changes? The current limited resources available at present aren't exactly doing a wonderful job.

[stodd]

I theory, riders of fast e-bikes can only use bike paths & pedestrian areas where mopeds are not allowed if they turn the assistance off. I don't think that this is well enforced.

I think that a fast e-bike (s-peldelec, electric moped) can't be driven on bike paths even if the assistance is turned off. It would be an extreme example of a switch; usually to switch between 250w and higher, in this case 0w to higher. Such a switch is explicitly ruled out; if you can switch to >250w (or 25kph) it counts as the higher even with the switch in the lower position. There is no precise definition of a switch however. Flashing firmware which can only be done while not riding is probably OK, a simple switch/setting you can easily change while riding is not OK, with a grey area in between. I guess taking the battery out would be OK, not count as a switch.

I certainly agree it is not well enforced. The no switch rule makes enforcement a tiny bit easier; the rider can say 'ah, but I was only riding on a 250w setting', but it won't mean there hasn't been an offence.

[simonhill]

I believe (some) mobility scooters have a speed controlling switch. They are legal in different circumstances at 4, 8 and 12 mph.

Just mentioning as a precedent.

[gaz]

Mobility scooters are usually categorised as either Class 2 (4mph on pavement/pedestrian area/cycletrack use) or Class 3 (8mph on road, 4mph on pavement, etc) mobility aids. Anything faster is "unclassed" and cannot be used on pavements, etc.

Class 3 (if used on the road) and "unclassed" need to be registered with DVLA, users of "unclassed" also need to hold a valid driving licence.

https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-an ... es/classes

[Jdsk]

"Ministers to consult on doubling the legal wattage of electric bike motors":
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/f ... ike-motors

The consultation:

"Smarter regulation: proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles":
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... dal-cycles

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

The consultation:

"Smarter regulation: proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles":
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... dal-cycles

Response from the Bicycle Association:
https://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/n ... ike-rules/

And from Cycling UK:
https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/statemen ... egulations

Jonathan

[slowster]

A common argument I see made by those who want the motor cut out raised from 15.5mph, is that 20mph (or some other stated higher speed) allows the rider to travel at the same speeds as motor traffic, which they argue is inherently safer than being constantly overtaken.

Two things occur to me (apologies if they have already been mentioned):

1. The current restriction is designed to result in ebikes being resonably close in function and performance to non-powered bikes. Therefore ebikes can be ridden on shared use paths and not substantially increase the level of risk to pedestrians. However, it also enables ebikes and non-powered bikes to share the same road space reasonably safely. The potential impact of faster ebikes not just on pedestrians but also on people riding non-powered bikes, never seems to be considered when people advocate raising the 15.5mph restriction.

Large numbers of ebikes occupying the same part of the road as ordinary bikes, but travelling 5mph to 10mph faster and consequently constantly overtaking non-powered bike riders, is likely to increase greatly the risk of collisions involving an ebike and a non-powered bike. There will be even more near misses (e.g. close passes by ebikes).

It's generally reckoned that the thing that most deters people from riding a bike is the level of (perceived) risk to the cyclist on the road. Ebikes being ridden at powered speeds of 20mph or more in the same part of the road as - and in proximity to - ordinary cyclists, will increase the perception of ordinary people that the roads are not safe for cycling.

2. The logical conclusion of the desire to travel at the same speeds as motor traffic, and that not being compatible with sharing the same part of the road with cyclists travelling much more slowly on non-powered bikes, is that faster ebikes travelling at the same speeds as motor traffic would need to be ridden in the same manner as a motorcycle or moped, i.e. constantly in primary position.

If an ebike is so fast that it needs to ridden like a motorcycle or moped, then testing and licensing become essential. Untrained ebike riders who have not passed a test probably could not be relied upon as a whole not to attempt to mix with ordinary cyclists.

[Grandad]

I suggest that this recent development should be in a new thread - being on page 28 of a long running it may not be noticed by many readers

[gaz]

Two new threads have been started today, both locked and redirected here.

Screenshot 2024-02-29 231739.png

[Carlton green]

Two new threads have been started today, both locked and redirected here.

Screenshot 2024-02-29 231739.png

And unless I’m mistaken another thread disappeared too. However the mods have a difficult job to do and, though they might not always be appreciated, their actions keep this place running smoothly.

I think that the thread has drifted a bit, but usefully so and overlapping conversation is in one place. The original post on this thread was:

So my question is, is a 250w mid motor going to have enough power to pull me up hills with modest peddle input?