BEVs

[Carlton green]

Anyway, if our political leaders want us to use BEV’s then one of the things that’s needed is cheap and easy repair and replacement of battery packs. Manufacturers aren’t interested in allowing cheap and easy repair and it will require legislation to change that poor state of affairs.

Very much agreed. See my previous rants about this very same thing.

Yes, I think that and the consequential insurance costs are now the main issues preventing me going down the BEV route.

Insurance costs!!!

Insurance groups for BEV’s seem to start at group 9 and go rapidly upwards. I checked a second gen Leaf out and it’s group 21.
https://www.cinch.co.uk/electric-cars/c ... -to-insure

One could be excused from thinking that BEV’s were toys for the wealthy and the business expenses driver. Why are these cars so expensive to insure? In part because they are so expensive to repair, so subject to non-repairability, so heavy (heavy cars do a lot of damage) and so powerful.

[UpWrong]

Insurance costs!!!

Insurance groups for BEV’s seem to start at group 9 and go rapidly upwards. I checked a second gen Leaf out and it’s group 21.
https://www.cinch.co.uk/electric-cars/c ... -to-insure

One could be excused from thinking that BEV’s were toys for the wealthy and the business expenses driver. Why are these cars so expensive to insure? In part because they are so expensive to repair, so subject to non-repairability, so heavy (heavy cars do a lot of damage) and so powerful.

Thanks. I think my current Skoda TSi turbo is group 9.

I've been watching video reviews of the Silence S04 with it's removable batteries and admiring the design. A number of reviewers after test rides have described it as sporty and it seems well finished.

[Biospace]

...
Why are these cars so expensive to insure? In part because they are so expensive to repair, so subject to non-repairability, so heavy (heavy cars do a lot of damage) and so powerful.

Yes, totally, I touched on this on page 99, viewtopic.php?p=1811000&hilit=giga#p1811000 which received the usual dismissal when I happen to mention any facts which don't promote BEVs!

Let's hope the insurance industry influences the design of BEVs.

An attempt to put some numbers on it:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/billrobers ... 73aabb1ac6

For a fully-covered CLO they come up with 245 km "in ideal conditions" and 69 km for a production vehicle.

As always: more numbers welcome. : - )

Jonathan

Without reference to the time taken to increase range by 245km, this number has little meaning in context of the discussion being had.

Quoted from a business magazine quoting what sounds like sales blurb from makers of a motor vehicle could lead to confusion, not clarity.

[Jdsk]

The only people I know of who have range anxiety are those who don't drive BEVs...

I know of plenty of people who panic when the fuel warning light comes on - I used to do 60 miles further before filling up.

In a BEV you have a couple of really useful tools:
- A generally good range-o-meter
- The ability to increase efficiency and therefore extend range, by just dropping 5mph.

it's repeatedly reported that range anxiety is more common in those who aren't familiar with BEVs. It might be a bit more subtle than that...

"Mental models guide electric vehicle charging":
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

"Why you might be charging your EV wrong – and what to do instead":
https://electrek.co/2024/03/18/why-you- ... o-instead/
based on that study.

Jonathan

[Biospace]

In the survey, 14% have stated their reason was to be able to run such a vehicle on their own "produced at home" energy.

I am interested to know more.

Is there anybody on here that ENTIRELY charges their BEV using renewable leccy sourced from their own solar , wind or hydro (or any other)?

And are they using said BEV for an average/low annual milage of say 5000.

What kind of vehicle do they use?
How much generating capacity does it need?

Real life experiences are always better than sales bumf.

That's a great question, to which my answer is no, but I have recharged e-bike batteries (around 0.5kWh) from direct solar while leaving sufficient in the house batteries to power all our other demands (but I didn't tick that choice at the top of each page). Had there been a BEV on the drive, it would have provided a useful way of using excess solar energy through May, June and July.

I should add, our PV + battery setup was relied on for a good 9 months of the year for all our electricity needs, as a way of reducing our carbon footprint rather than a way of reducing high electricity bills.

It was a wonderful lesson in how fossil fuel mindsets, formed from becoming used to limitless energy at the flick of a switch, lead to inefficient use and overuse of all energy. I can't help but think the size and mass of today's electric cars is very much of that mindset.

[the snail]

...Given the choice the vast majority of people wouldn’t consider buying a BEV ...

Really? Got any evidence for that assertion?

https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/52-perce ... rchase-ev/

[Carlton green]

...Given the choice the vast majority of people wouldn’t consider buying a BEV ...

Really? Got any evidence for that assertion?

https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/52-perce ... rchase-ev/

That was two pages back

Shock and horror, a ‘publication’ supporting EV’s says that they’re popular

If the tax breaks were taken away then BEV sales would plummet - the tax breaks are there for a reason. It doesn’t take a genius too to realise that the current move away from ICE cars wouldn’t happen without legislation, people wouldn’t buy electric cars if they weren’t forced to and likewise manufacturers wouldn’t need laws that tail down production of ICE vehicles. It really isn’t rocket science .

In the politest possible way if you’re going to quote me then please do so in context.

I read a link somewhere and the gist of one of the points was that (now) the industry supplied what the laws said they had to and not what the customer actually wanted. With the massive size of vehicles I’m not sure that that is completely true, but there’s certainly a big element of truth to that concept. Given the choice the vast majority of people wouldn’t consider buying a BEV and if there was no tax advantage to companies then companies wouldn’t bother much with them either. Those might be unpalatable facts but that’s the way it is, people prefer to stick with what they know and know to work for them.

[Jdsk]

...Given the choice the vast majority of people wouldn’t consider buying a BEV ...

Really? Got any evidence for that assertion?

https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/52-perce ... rchase-ev/

Apparently not.

Jonathan

[Biospace]

After a call for more numbers, there was some confusion with figures following a post asking if anyone re-charged BEVs from domestic RE, given the 14% who had mentioned this in the topic survey, the joint second most popular response.

The theoretical best case for a 4 mile/kWh vehicle would be around 600 miles a year from one square metre of PV, but without a host of extra electronics, the reality is likely to be under half of that even if shaded places were avoided. Using domestic arrays of PV would likely involve as much fine tuning with extra controls but there are people who do this, mostly in parts of the world with reliable sunshine.

Water or wind turbines could be more successful, water especially so due to its more stable output.

These figures were quoted from a business magazine website,

For a fully-covered CLO they come up with 245 km "in ideal conditions" and 69 km for a production vehicle

The fully-covered car was from Sono (their car project is now cancelled, it had been due to sell from around €22,000), a German company specialising in vehicle-mounted PV. Through optimisation of panel design and battery integration (which included panel cooling), they achieved some impressive figures - up to a maximum additional daily range of 22 miles.

More realistically, daily solar range was quoted by them as being under 2 miles in January to 7 miles in June, when cloudy (Munich), with more typical Munich weather giving 3 miles (January) to 15 miles (July) daily solar range. I've read of energy consumption figures were of 4 to 6 miles per kWh.

The "production vehicle" referred to was a Lightyear 0 ($250,000) but the company filed for insolvency, resurrected with backing for a cheaper replacement, but the company now appears to be concentrating only on vehicle solar technology. The company claimed up to 70km a day from on-board solar power alone, which may have meant a typical 20 miles a day solar top-up.

I'm personally very interested in the concept of on-board charging as well as charging from domestic RE, not least because this highlights just how relatively inefficient many BEVs in current production are. Were trends towards less energy use it wouldn't be quite so troubling.

[UpWrong]

If the tax breaks were taken away then BEV sales would plummet - the tax breaks are there for a reason. It doesn’t take a genius too to realise that the current move away from ICE cars wouldn’t happen without legislation, people wouldn’t buy electric cars if they weren’t forced to and likewise manufacturers wouldn’t need laws that tail down production of ICE vehicles. It really isn’t rocket science .

Yes but, no but. I've lost touch with how expensive new ICE cars now are. The gap with BEVs has narrowed. It's being pointed out that there is near price equvialence between a Dacia Spring BEV and a Hyundai i10 ICE. I guess the difference lies in the used market where the majority of UK private buyers operate. Those with a £5K budget won't be looking at electric for some while to come.

[Nearholmer]

highlights just how relatively inefficient many BEVs in current production are

Perhaps more that they are big, than that they are particularly inefficient, although to push efficiency a long way they either need to travel pretty slowly, or be far more aerodynamic than many designs are, enclosed wheel arches, that sort of thing.

The BEV that put stars in my eyes at the concept stage was the new VW minibus (Buzz?), which I somehow imagined would be about the size of the traditional VW camper of 50+ years ago. When I met one in the flesh for the first time I was astounded by how huge it is! 50+ years ago it would have been considered big enough to be a lorry.

[Jdsk]

...
The gap with BEVs has narrowed. It's being pointed out that there is near price equvialence between a Dacia Spring BEV and a Hyundai i10 ICE.
...

The latest on costs from Gartner: "Gartner Outlines a New Phase for Electric Vehicles":
https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/pre ... c-vehicles

Jonathan

[Biospace]

highlights just how relatively inefficient many BEVs in current production are

Perhaps more that they are big, than that they are particularly inefficient, although to push efficiency a long way they either need to travel pretty slowly, or be far more aerodynamic than many designs are, enclosed wheel arches, that sort of thing.

The BEV that put stars in my eyes at the concept stage was the new VW minibus (Buzz?), which I somehow imagined would be about the size of the traditional VW camper of 50+ years ago. When I met one in the flesh for the first time I was astounded by how huge it is! 50+ years ago it would have been considered big enough to be a lorry.

Yes, modern cars are so often larger than we would expect yet seem to have grown relatively little on the inside.

I was considering mass as much as anything, a heavy car is always going to struggle to be efficient, unless it has a very slippery body and never turns off a perfectly level motorway on which it maintains an unvarying speed.

Profits are perhaps more carefully worked out today than ever, there's no profit in producing something to be lightweight unless it's for something relatively exclusive.

[Biospace]

...
Those with a £5K budget won't be looking at electric for some while to come.

Sorry to pick you up on just one point, but there were loads of Leafs being offered around £5k in 2018 by NIssan dealers and there are plenty under £5k today. Public perceptions hadn't been adjusted sufficiently in 2018, there was a good supply of second hand cars which were returned from the various forms of contract hire or leasing or whatever it's called. Many were like new, I very nearly bought one.

Here is a selection which sold recently, https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... Complete=1

[Carlton green]

...
Those with a £5K budget won't be looking at electric for some while to come.

Sorry to pick you up on just one point, but there were loads of Leafs being offered around £5k in 2018 by NIssan dealers and there are plenty under £5k today. Public perceptions hadn't been adjusted sufficiently in 2018, there was a good supply of second hand cars which were returned from the various forms of contract hire or leasing or whatever it's called. Many were like new, I very nearly bought one.

Here is a selection which sold recently, https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... Complete=1

H’mm, can’t argue with that eBay listing of sold goods but I’m not sure that I’d buy an electric car off of eBay.

The small battery (24Kwh) Leafs are the earlier ones and even if the batteries are in really good condition - which I think unlikely - they have limited range which constrains what they might be used for. A pal of mine has one and it’s really only any use for short journeys near to home … a lot of folk would find them impractical and hence the prices. If battery replacement and enhancement was available for sensible money then they’d sell much better (IMHO).

I checked on Cazoo what Leafs were available under £10k and a Gen 1 with a 30 KWh battery is about £7.5k, there was nothing for £5k.
https://www.cazoo.co.uk/cars/nissan/lea ... price-desc
Other sellers started at similarly heigh prices: https://www.bristolstreet.co.uk/used-ca ... lsrc=aw.ds