Dartmoor wild camping ban now to go to Supreme Court

[ChrisButch]

Having comprehensively lost their case at the Court of Appeal, which unanimously restored the right to wild camp on Dartmoor, the landowners have now said they're appealing to the Supreme Court!
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-ne ... ld-8721571

[pjclinch]

Let's hope that not only they lose but it costs them a fortune too...

[Psamathe]

I wonder if there are other "interested parties" funding the landowners. I've absolutely no evidence but as said above the legal fees (their own and those for the other party) for the "loser" could be quite significant. Dreaming up conspiracy theories I wonder if this might be something of a test case for other landowners who want to establish the principle i.e. once established "it's expensive and your likely to lose" the landowners can go for bans elsewhere and are less likely to be taken to court and can cite the Dartmoor case.

As I say, nothing more than wild unfounded wondering about possibilities.

Ian

[Pinhead]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

[Mike Sales]

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

If I owned a large chunk of Dartmoor I would be happy with wild campers.
Nobody could hope to camp in my garden undetected.

… He said "All this land is my master's"
At that I stood shaking my head
No man has the right to own mountains
Any more than the deep ocean bed…

[a.twiddler]

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

If I owned a large chunk of Dartmoor I would be happy with wild campers.
Nobody could hope to camp in my garden undetected.

… He said "All this land is my master's"
At that I stood shaking my head
No man has the right to own mountains
Any more than the deep ocean bed…

Was it not David Lloyd George who famously said "If a man should steal the sheep from the mountain, he will go to jail, yet should a man steal the mountain from the sheep, he will have a knighthood." It obviously pays to think big.

[Mike Sales]

Was it not David Lloyd George who famously said "If a man should steal the sheep from the mountain, he will go to jail, yet should a man steal the mountain from the sheep, he will have a knighthood." It obviously pays to think big.

You may be thinking of a 17th.C poem. Or perhaps Lloyd George was. Naturally, as Welshman, he would think in terms of sheep.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose.

The law demands that we atone
When we take things we do not own
But leaves the lords and ladies fine
Who takes things that are yours and mine.

The poor and wretched don’t escape
If they conspire the law to break;
This must be so but they endure
Those who conspire to make the law.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
And geese will still a common lack
Till they go and steal it back.

https://www.onthecommons.org/magazine/% ... index.html

[Thehairs1970]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

I live on the moors and yes you do get littering etc etc. But these people aren’t going to start obeying the rules just because they have banned camping. They’ll still do it because they are ignorant and don’t care about the laws.

Tbh, there are already enough bylaws and rules around trespass that the few who do treat our wild places could be fined etc, however, no one will investigate or pursue them as the police in the area are already stretched to the limit. So quite how Mr Hedge-Fund thinks a new law would help when no one will be able to police it, I don’t know.

Btw some of he fires you see are swaling not accidental.

[a.twiddler]

Was it not David Lloyd George who famously said "If a man should steal the sheep from the mountain, he will go to jail, yet should a man steal the mountain from the sheep, he will have a knighthood." It obviously pays to think big.

You may be thinking of a 17th.C poem. Or perhaps Lloyd George was. Naturally, as Welshman, he would think in terms of sheep.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose.

The law demands that we atone
When we take things we do not own
But leaves the lords and ladies fine
Who takes things that are yours and mine.

The poor and wretched don’t escape
If they conspire the law to break;?
This must be so but they endure
Those who conspire to make the law.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
And geese will still a common lack
Till they go and steal it back.

https://www.onthecommons.org/magazine/% ... index.html

Definitely Lloyd George. Who is to say that such a gifted orator might not be averse to pinching and amending from other people's work? He would certainly have been very well aware of such historical injustices as the Enclosures Act.
I like the poem. It expresses the sentiment very well.

[pwa]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

People who have huge tracts of land in their possession are the benefactors of a process of the rich taking from the poor, which happened over centuries. I see no reason for continuing to put up with it.

The question of how to regulate wild camping to minimise anti-social acts is a real one, but we ought to be looking at it as a nation seeking to look after our national assets, and not with any concern for "property" that really ought to be fully under the control of the nation.

[pjclinch]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

In Scotland the "right to roam" is enshrined in law and hasn't been a cause of significant problems, in part because the law as laid down was quite carefully designed. It's only lawful access if it's responsible access, so "pig ignorant" littering campers are breaking the law, but careful campers aren't. Most of your littering problems come at roadside camps, which aren't "wild camping", and thus not responsible access, and in turn thus not legal.

As for fires and damage etc., campers and walkers and cyclists would have to go some to do a fraction of the damage that the hunting industry's treeless monocultures, with deliberate annual burns, manage to do.

Pete.

[Sweep]

[
As for fires and damage etc., campers and walkers and cyclists would have to go some to do a fraction of the damage that the hunting industry's treeless monocultures, with deliberate annual burns, manage to do.

Pete.

plus deliberate killing of birds such as the endangered hen harrier.
which the hunting lobby don't like as in their selfless dedication to conservation they want all of their grouse to grow to table weight so that they can then be blasted out of the sky.

[Psamathe]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

In Scotland the "right to roam" is enshrined in law and hasn't been a cause of significant problems, in part because the law as laid down was quite carefully designed. It's only lawful access if it's responsible access, so "pig ignorant" littering campers are breaking the law, but careful campers aren't. ...

Do correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that if problems arise in an area then actions or additional regulations can be implemented to address the problem. I had a feeling there was a big ongoing problem with irresponsible wild campers in the Loch Lomond area (more overnight parties type of thing) and so local laws were introduced to ban wild camping is a small specific area - which was possible under the Right to Roam legislation.

But my understanding on this is very indirect (from people telling people telling people ... eventually to me).

Ian

[pjclinch]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

In Scotland the "right to roam" is enshrined in law and hasn't been a cause of significant problems, in part because the law as laid down was quite carefully designed. It's only lawful access if it's responsible access, so "pig ignorant" littering campers are breaking the law, but careful campers aren't. ...

Do correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that if problems arise in an area then actions or additional regulations can be implemented to address the problem. I had a feeling there was a big ongoing problem with irresponsible wild campers in the Loch Lomond area (more overnight parties type of thing) and so local laws were introduced to ban wild camping is a small specific area - which was possible under the Right to Roam legislation.

But my understanding on this is very indirect (from people telling people telling people ... eventually to me).

That's right.
There are (quite reasonably) means of dealing with exceptional circumstances, and Loch Lomond is close to the start of the West Highland Way and "civilisation" in general, and the east coast path along it has a relatively large amount of folk on a fairly narrow corridor, so it really is exceptional in its potential to create camping demand.
The trick is one says everywhere is open to start with, and close loopholes, rather than starting off with everywhere shut to start with, and magically finding subsequent to that it's remarkably unusual for a private landlord to come up with a reason to open loopholes.

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/ is a good place to start on more detail.

Pete.

[hamster]

I LIVED near the Moors, campers can be pig ignorant selfish littering and burning and WE HAVE seen MOOR fires thanks to smokers and campers

Also right to roam, what on private land, the do gooders would be different if it was THEIR land.

I live in a town centre and people vomit on the side of my house and chuck their rubbish in my front garden.
Someone even managed to cross 3m of pavement and demolish 4m of garden wall with their car (on a dead straight road).

Idiots are idiots.


So your point is?