Quad pain/effort on MTB compared to road bike

[mediumbird]

Not sure if anyone able to advise, or has the same issue, but am curious as its frustrating me....On a road bike I don't really get any quad issues(though am not a great hill climber, as I think my technique is too quad dominant, but at age 60 I doubt I'll be able to rectify that...), but I have a relatively cheap MTB(Trek x caliber 7 29 er) and I hate it, as soon as I go up any incline, my quads scream at me and its so much effort. I've tried everything as regards saddle height etc(had a bike fit for my road bike), to no avail. I don't know whether it's just me, or its the geometry of that bike that is all wrong. I went on an easy 37 mile road trip one day without any issues, and then 2 days later did a 22 mile trail ride that broke me for 2 days. Average HR was much higher during it. Any tips, or just keep going out on it and get fitter? I imagine the 4 kg difference in bike weights won't be helping either....

[JohnI]

I bought a gravel bike a few months ago and had a similar experience - it took me some time to get comfortable and I was getting some leg soreness from riding. This surprised me because I already have a road bike and an MTB but haven't had the same issue. Of course saddle height mattered but I also needed to raise the bars. This might sounds strange but I also changed my pedalling style so I was pushing slightly forward instead of straight down. My body was forward and down like on my road bike but my bum was back because the seat tube angle is more like my MTB. So basically I needed to be both a bit more upright but also to re-programme my brain to remind me that I wasn't on a road bike.

[Jdsk]

Not sure if anyone able to advise, or has the same issue, but am curious as its frustrating me....On a road bike I don't really get any quad issues(though am not a great hill climber, as I think my technique is too quad dominant, but at age 60 I doubt I'll be able to rectify that...), but I have a relatively cheap MTB(Trek x caliber 7 29 er) and I hate it, as soon as I go up any incline, my quads scream at me and its so much effort. I've tried everything as regards saddle height etc(had a bike fit for my road bike), to no avail. I don't know whether it's just me, or its the geometry of that bike that is all wrong. I went on an easy 37 mile road trip one day without any issues, and then 2 days later did a 22 mile trail ride that broke me for 2 days. Average HR was much higher during it. Any tips, or just keep going out on it and get fitter? I imagine the 4 kg difference in bike weights won't be helping either....

On the pain:
• Are you sure that it's coming from muscle (or tendon) rather than joint? Please could you add a photo with one finger pointing at where it's worst.
• Is it tender after you stop riding?

On the position:
• Please could you add some photos or, preferably, videos of you in riding position with your feet on the pedals.
• Are you staying in the saddle on both bikes on those climbs?

Jonathan

[mediumbird]

Not sure if anyone able to advise, or has the same issue, but am curious as its frustrating me....On a road bike I don't really get any quad issues(though am not a great hill climber, as I think my technique is too quad dominant, but at age 60 I doubt I'll be able to rectify that...), but I have a relatively cheap MTB(Trek x caliber 7 29 er) and I hate it, as soon as I go up any incline, my quads scream at me and its so much effort. I've tried everything as regards saddle height etc(had a bike fit for my road bike), to no avail. I don't know whether it's just me, or its the geometry of that bike that is all wrong. I went on an easy 37 mile road trip one day without any issues, and then 2 days later did a 22 mile trail ride that broke me for 2 days. Average HR was much higher during it. Any tips, or just keep going out on it and get fitter? I imagine the 4 kg difference in bike weights won't be helping either....

On the pain:
• Are you sure that it's coming from muscle (or tendon) rather than joint? Please could you add a photo with one finger pointing at where it's worst.
• Is it tender after you stop riding?

On the position:
• Please could you add some photos or, preferably, videos of you in riding position with your feet on the pedals.
• Are you staying in the saddle on both bikes on those climbs?

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan. It's definitely muscle pain/discomfort/fatigue affecting the whole of the front of the thigh-just seem to use my quads more on the MTB and they seem so much weaker than on my road bike. Not tender after riding, but fatigued.

I'll have to see if I can get photos riding the bike....a rear view the other day-I'm the one on the left. Doubt that's very helpful though! Am staying in the saddle for both bikes-if I get out the saddle on my MTB and lean forward a bit it certainly helps me, but can't really sustain that for too long.

[531colin]

A couple of things that "not everybody knows".........

1..Having the saddle forward loads your quads and spares your glutes/hamstrings; having the saddle back loads your glutes/hamstrings and spares your quads.

2..having your cleats back (feet forward on the pedals) loads your quads and spares your glutes/hamstrings; having the cleats forward (feet back on the pedals) loads your glutes/hamstrings and spares your quads.

I looked here https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/bike ... 7/p/33194/...and found a bike with a steep seat tube angle (modern mountain bike geometry!) and an in-line seatpost....
Is this your bike?

a comparison of the seat tube angles and seatpost setback on your 2 bikes would be interesting!

Do you use the same shoes/pedal system on both bikes?

[mediumbird]

A couple of things that "not everybody knows".........

1..Having the saddle forward loads your quads and spares your glutes/hamstrings; having the saddle back loads your glutes/hamstrings and spares your quads.

2..having your cleats back (feet forward on the pedals) loads your quads and spares your glutes/hamstrings; having the cleats forward (feet back on the pedals) loads your glutes/hamstrings and spares your quads.

I looked here https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/bike ... 7/p/33194/...and found a bike with a steep seat tube angle (modern mountain bike geometry!) and an in-line seatpost....
Is this your bike?

a comparison of the seat tube angles and seatpost setback on your 2 bikes would be interesting!

Do you use the same shoes/pedal system on both bikes?

Many thanks 531Colin.
The bike I have is a 2016 Trek X Caliber 7, and this is its geometry

My road bike is a made to measure Titanium Burls bike, but based on and old Giant Scr 3.0w(2007) My bike fit info is here if that helps?

I don’t use any cleats on my MTB as I want to be able to put my feet down quickly…..I might have mistakenly put my saddle too far forward going by what you’re saying? Interestingly I don’t remember having this issue on my old 26 inch Specialized Hardrock……which I wish I still had instead of being persuaded by a shiny new bike and a good salesman moving me onto Trek 29er..

[531colin]

So your Trek has 72.5 degree seat angle, I think your road bike will be similar.
I think the Trek comes with an in-line seatpost, where the saddle clamp is right on top of the seatpost, but I expect your road bike has a seatpost with a bit of "layback" ......where the top of the seatpost extends behind the post, so the saddle clamp is behind the seatpost.
.....and I think this is likely to mean that the 2 bikes put your backside in a different place relative to the the pedals.
If in doubt, then a photo of the 2 seatposts will show whether this is the case or not.

Alternatively, your bike fit information says your saddle nose is 71mm behind the BB axle....although thats less useful if the 2 saddles are different.

I suspect your old Specialised bike would have had a shallower seat tube angle and a seatpost with a bit of layback.

[mediumbird]

So your Trek has 72.5 degree seat angle, I think your road bike will be similar.
I think the Trek comes with an in-line seatpost, where the saddle clamp is right on top of the seatpost, but I expect your road bike has a seatpost with a bit of "layback" ......where the top of the seatpost extends behind the post, so the saddle clamp is behind the seatpost.
.....and I think this is likely to mean that the 2 bikes put your backside in a different place relative to the the pedals.
If in doubt, then a photo of the 2 seatposts will show whether this is the case or not.

Alternatively, your bike fit information says your saddle nose is 71mm behind the BB axle....although thats less useful if the 2 saddles are different.

I suspect your old Specialised bike would have had a shallower seat tube angle and a seatpost with a bit of layback.

Thanks 531Colin. My road bike has a seat angle of 74 according to the bike fit, but thanks for the info re the seat position. Once the ice and snow clear from here, I shall go and mess with my saddle position and see if that helps. Thanks for the info and help.

[531colin]

.................. My road bike has a seat angle of 74 according to the bike fit, but thanks for the info re the seat position. Once the ice and snow clear from here, I shall go and mess with my saddle position and see if that helps. Thanks for the info and help.

Your bike fit document actually reads...."Eff. seat tube angle: 74 deg BB to centre of saddle profile"
Now i have never seen that used as a metric, but I guess it means what it says, that they measured the angle between the BB axle and the centre of the saddle. That isn't necessarily the same as the angle of the seat tube to the horizontal.
It also suffers from the same disadvantage as measuring how far the saddle nose is behind the BB; it only applies to that particular design of saddle.

Even if your road bike has a seat tube angle of 74 degrees, the question remains, does it have a seatpost with some setback?
I imagine you have some information from Burls, I would expect that to include the real seat tube angle?

[pjclinch]

Aside from experimenting with seat position as Colin has suggested, how do things thigh-wise on the two bikes work when you're out of the saddle? And do you typically take on hills by powering through in a monster gear, spinning grannies at high cadence or somewhere between?

Pete.

[mediumbird]

Aside from experimenting with seat position as Colin has suggested, how do things thigh-wise on the two bikes work when you're out of the saddle? And do you typically take on hills by powering through in a monster gear, spinning grannies at high cadence or somewhere between?

Pete.

Ha ha. I can't say I ever power through hills in a monster gear......I'm not a good hill climber, and my knees don't do high cadence, so I'm somewhere in between, whiling away in a granny gear........ I would say that I'm not a natural cyclist in that I don't think I have a good technique and am too quad based, so even on my road bike I struggle up hills, but absolutely nothing like my MTB, which completely exhausts my quads and takes so much more out of me!

[foxyrider]

Until last week i hadn't ridden an MTB further than round the block in best part of 20 years, so i've been expecting some discomfort. There has been some, shoulders / elbows due to the stupid width of the bars but nothing in the legs at all. The MTB position is miles away from my road bikes, the saddle slightly lower, the bars a lot higher, i've not run a tape but my road position is quite slammed (largely due to my gibbon arm length ), the MTB is more like riding a kitchen chair!

In the past i've done some silly distance MTB rides mixed in with road racing (think 100 mile plus), its always been my arms that have complained.

Maybe i've just been lucky but i can't help thinking that all the talk of frame angles etc is muddying the waters somewhat, i'd go back to basics and set the MTB's cockpit up as close to the road bike as feasible in terms of length to the bars and saddle height, replicating your knee/pedal position at the 3 o'clock position. If you are in as near as dammit the same position it should sort the issue out.

[531colin]

..................
Maybe i've just been lucky but i can't help thinking that all the talk of frame angles etc is muddying the waters somewhat, i'd go back to basics and set the MTB's cockpit up as close to the road bike as feasible in terms of length to the bars and saddle height, replicating your knee/pedal position at the 3 o'clock position. If you are in as near as dammit the same position it should sort the issue out.

I think we are saying the same thing, basically the 2 bikes need to be similar in terms of the relationship between where the riders backside and feet are. Saddle height; similar. Saddle setback; similar.....I wouldn't say you should necessarily aim for KOPS, but you should aim for the same relationship between your knee and foot when the pedal is at 3 o'clock....its just another way of saying saddle setback and height should be similar.

Frame geometry comes into this, put simply if you have 2 bikes with 73 degree seat tube angle and you have an inline seatpost in one bike and a setback seatpost in the other bike, you are unlikely to get the same saddle setback (relative to BB axle) for both bikes.

You won't get the same reach to flat bar grips as to the brake hoods on drops, there isn't a stem long enough

(KOPS = knee over pedal spindle)

[mediumbird]

I had a look yesterday at the bikes, and both have setback seatposts. I did try and replicate the positioning between road bike and the MTB after I had that bike fit, though the reach is less easy to replicate between flat bars and hoods. I did this from the get go, but still had the same issues, hence my frustration with it. I don’t know whether it’s the more upright posture on the MTB that causes me the difference, less forward lean, and less power through the stroke in the MTB. Who knows. It may be that it’s simply the heavier bike. Mind you, I do remember years ago getting a Specialized Sirrus Elite(basically a flat bar road bike) and having the same issues. Think it just must be me on flat bars……I I’ll go fiddle again….

[531colin]

Tie a weight to a bit of string and use it as a plumb line to measure how far behind the BB axle the front of the saddle comes on the 2 bikes.
I still think saddle setback is likely to be the difference between the 2 bikes; to get the reach comparable between flat bars and drops I think you will need to fit bar ends to the flat bars.
Edit..remembering that you don’t use cleats on the MTB, if you pedal with your feet forward on the pedals, this also loads the quads