Tourer for gentle off-roading?

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MatthewV
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Joined: 5 Mar 2024, 5:11pm

Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by MatthewV »

My current bike is a 2006 Dawes Super Galaxy, gently tweaked over time for e.g. dynohub, better fitting, etc.:
Image

I love riding it, and we've done many miles together (including C2C and the Hebridean Way in recent years); I like the riding position, the robust frame (it's had a few dents by now!), I like how it feels to ride, and that it's pretty quick but also solid even when both rear panniers are pretty full!

But it's not really good for anything offroad except the dryest and hardest ground - the 700x32C Marathons and my 77kg sink into mud, and sandy ground involves a lot of sliding about and is no fun at all. And there's not clearance for fitting chunkier tyres.

So I'd like an N+1, for gentle off-road touring (I'm thinking of things like the Rebellion Way), but I think I still want a tourer rather than a gravel bike - I'm expecting to want essentially the same geometry (since I've had the Super Galaxy fitted to me), drop bars, rear rack, mudguards etc.

Which I think leaves me with two questions (one probably easier than the other!):
  1. What sort of width rims/tyres should I be thinking about?
  2. What bikes/manufacturers should I be looking at / talking to?
Budget-wise I was thinking maybe in the £3k region? The Super Galaxy was £900 new nearly 20 years ago, and I'm no longer a graduate student...
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Traction_man
Posts: 328
Joined: 10 Jan 2020, 5:30pm
Location: Bangor NI

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by Traction_man »

something like this?

https://winstanleysbikes.co.uk/surly-di ... -2022-bike

blurb says "Clearance for 26” x 2.1” tyres with or without fenders, or 700c x 47mm with or without fenders".

cheers,

Keith
Jdsk
Posts: 25025
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by Jdsk »

Welcome

I'd start with Spa Cycles and Oxford Bike Works:
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p0/Bikes/Touring
https://www.oxfordbikeworks.co.uk/models/overview

and this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=157813

Jonathan (just planning this summer's tour for our Galaxies)
Nearholmer
Posts: 4029
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by Nearholmer »

I always suggest my current bike, to everybody, for everything, because it is so versatile, so;
IMG_2603.jpeg
Genesis Croix de Fer, post-2016 725 version, with steel fork.

i use this one for everything up to some quite bumpy and steep off-road, hence 40mm tubeless (it can go up to 45mm), but with slightly narrower tyres (35mm) its good as a light tourer on paved and benign un-paved surfaces too. It’s too short in the chain-stays for heavily laden touring. With 32mm touring tyres it actually becomes quite nippy, but is rather punishing off-road. Takes rack and mudguards, and has lots of braze-ones for other forms of luggage too.

I like it so much that my All Terrain Shopping Bike (utility use, and slow and bumpy bridle-way rambles) is the same thing with different handlebars (im forever trying different ones, and the latest are definitely the best flat bars ive found so far, which is a good job, because they cost a fortune!).
IMG_0022.jpeg
slowster
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Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by slowster »

If I understand correctly, you want a bike that is similar in as many respects as possible to your Super Galaxy, but with clearance for wider tyres for the sort of gentle off-road touring you describe.

I think many suggestions will fall into one of two categories: expedition type touring bikes like the Surly Disc Trucker and Spa Wayfarer, and gravel bikes.

The Surly Disc Trucker and Spa Wayfarer will take up to 47mm tyres with mudguards (https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p47 ... pd-Sora-STI and https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s225p38 ... Cable-Disc). They are fairly heavily built, substantial frames and forks, and I think the Disc Trucker in particular is generally reckoned to handle better laden than unladen. I think you might find Disc Trucker and probably also the Wayfarer not as nice to ride unladen on tarmac as your Super Galaxy. I say that because I have a Wayfarer and a 1980s classic 531 Raleigh tourer, and the latter is a more flexible frame and smoother ride on tarmac, as well as being quite a bit lighter (>1 kg) because the disc brakes, burlier frame and rims and bigger tyres etc. all add up. However, like your Super Galaxy my Raleigh only has clearance for 32mm tyres, and the Wayfarer beats it hands down riding on gravel tracks.

There are so many differences now between various gravel bikes, that the term can be used for bikes that are very different. Some are more race oriented in terms of the frame, the geometry/handling, the (high) gearing and lightweight wheels, and some are more like light tourers (very lightweight if carbon/carbon forked) with large tyre clearances, e.g. I think 40mm clearance is the usual minimum now and many take 45mm. The Spa Elan in titanium (e.g. https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s223p47 ... -Hydraulic) or steel takes up to 40mm tyres with mudguards, and is often recommended on here. If you visted Spa in Harrogate you could probably test ride a Wayfarer and Elan back to back, which would give you a good idea of the differences not just between those two bikes but also between those two classes of bikes. NB The Elan is one of the few gravel bikes with a tall head tube allowing fairly high bar placement with a carbon fork (carbon forks generally are limited to no more than 30mm of spacers below the stem).

I suspect however, that for the riding you want to do, it would make more sense to get a bike that could take wider tyres than the Elan and most other gravel bikes. From your description, the tyre clearance is the limiting factor on your Super Galaxy. I think that there is a danger that if you get a bike with 40mm or even 45mm tyre clearance, you will end up deciding that you would like the option of even wider. If at all possible I suggest you try some bikes with different width tyres on the sort of tracks you plan on riding.

There are a few niche bikes which give the option of wider tyres than Surly Disc Trucker and Spa Wayfarer, which are not burly expedition bikes (although will still be heavier than your SG), and which can be built with either drops or flat bars, subject to paying careful attention to the reach/top tube measurement and the frame size. For example,

Singular Peregrine - https://singularcycles.com/products/peregrine (see also the Singular Gryphon)

Salsa Fargo - https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/road/Fargo

Genesis Vagabond - https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis- ... vargn22500

Ritchey Ascent - https://ritcheylogic.com/bike/frames/ascent-frameset - video review below.

The above bikes are not all alike, and they have various differences, e.g. Fargo has a carbon fork, Peregrine has an eccentric bottom bracket, Vagabond requires fiddling to fit a rear mudgaurd (there's a thread telling you how which you can find using the search function) and I think the Ascent might be similar.

slowster
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Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by slowster »

I've just spotted that you have your saddle slammed back on a Velo Orange Gran Cru/Holdsworth/JTek seatpost, which gives more set back than almost any other seatpost apart from some fairly unusual and expensive models. Given your comments about how you have got the fit of your Super Galaxy just how you want it, I suspect many current bikes would not allow you to get the saddle as far back.

Each 1 degree difference in seat tube angle is equivalent to approximately a ~10mm difference in top tube length. If your Super Galaxy has a 72 degree seat tube angle, you will find that the saddle will be ~10mm further forward on a bike with a 73 degree seat tube angle, and ~20mm if the seat tube angle is 74 degrees.
MatthewV
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Joined: 5 Mar 2024, 5:11pm

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by MatthewV »

Yeah, I had a bike fitting with someone who knew what they were doing, and they moved the saddle pretty far back. But I do at least have a set of measurements of how the bike should be set up...
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Cowsham
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Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by Cowsham »

Nearholmer wrote: 5 Mar 2024, 6:35pm I always suggest my current bike, to everybody, for everything, because it is so versatile, so;

IMG_2603.jpeg

Genesis Croix de Fer, post-2016 725 version, with steel fork.

i use this one for everything up to some quite bumpy and steep off-road, hence 40mm tubeless (it can go up to 45mm), but with slightly narrower tyres (35mm) its good as a light tourer on paved and benign un-paved surfaces too. It’s too short in the chain-stays for heavily laden touring. With 32mm touring tyres it actually becomes quite nippy, but is rather punishing off-road. Takes rack and mudguards, and has lots of braze-ones for other forms of luggage too.

I like it so much that my All Terrain Shopping Bike (utility use, and slow and bumpy bridle-way rambles) is the same thing with different handlebars (im forever trying different ones, and the latest are definitely the best flat bars ive found so far, which is a good job, because they cost a fortune!).

IMG_0022.jpeg
Lovely bikes -- like the expensive bars
I am here. Where are you?
JohnR
Posts: 290
Joined: 6 Jul 2020, 3:51pm

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by JohnR »

slowster wrote: 5 Mar 2024, 8:52pm There are so many differences now between various gravel bikes, that the term can be used for bikes that are very different. Some are more race oriented in terms of the frame, the geometry/handling, the (high) gearing and lightweight wheels, and some are more like light tourers (very lightweight if carbon/carbon forked) with large tyre clearances, e.g. I think 40mm clearance is the usual minimum now and many take 45mm. The Spa Elan in titanium (e.g. https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s223p47 ... -Hydraulic) or steel takes up to 40mm tyres with mudguards, and is often recommended on here. If you visted Spa in Harrogate you could probably test ride a Wayfarer and Elan back to back, which would give you a good idea of the differences not just between those two bikes but also between those two classes of bikes. NB The Elan is one of the few gravel bikes with a tall head tube allowing fairly high bar placement with a carbon fork (carbon forks generally are limited to no more than 30mm of spacers below the stem).
I would note that one way to wider tyres is to fit 584 (27.5") wheels. I've done this to be able to use 50mm tyres on an Elan.
Usually riding a Spa Cycles Aubisque or a Rohloff-equipped Spa Cycles Elan Ti
Carlton green
Posts: 3728
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by Carlton green »

MatthewV wrote: 5 Mar 2024, 5:27pm My current bike is a 2006 Dawes Super Galaxy, gently tweaked over time for e.g. dynohub, better fitting, etc.

I love riding it, and we've done many miles together (including C2C and the Hebridean Way in recent years); I like the riding position, the robust frame (it's had a few dents by now!), I like how it feels to ride, and that it's pretty quick but also solid even when both rear panniers are pretty full!

But it's not really good for anything offroad except the dryest and hardest ground - the 700x32C Marathons and my 77kg sink into mud, and sandy ground involves a lot of sliding about and is no fun at all. And there's not clearance for fitting chunkier tyres.

So I'd like an N+1, for gentle off-road touring (I'm thinking of things like the Rebellion Way), but I think I still want a tourer rather than a gravel bike - I'm expecting to want essentially the same geometry (since I've had the Super Galaxy fitted to me), drop bars, rear rack, mudguards etc.

Which I think leaves me with two questions (one probably easier than the other!):
  1. What sort of width rims/tyres should I be thinking about?
  2. What bikes/manufacturers should I be looking at / talking to?
Budget-wise I was thinking maybe in the £3k region? The Super Galaxy was £900 new nearly 20 years ago, and I'm no longer a graduate student...
You’ve had some good and well informed answers for ‘off the peg’ bikes already, I offer a wider view.

You’ve had your rather nice existing bike for many years and have customised it to suit your needs, all is well except the (found to be too narrow) tyres aren’t up to your off of road needs. Your budget looks plenty to me, but I claim no expertise.

With mostly no concern and occasionally just a little care I find that I can go all over the place on 700 x 35C’s (at small sizes a bit of extra width makes a noticeable and significant difference, well thats my experience) and 700 x 38C’s would likely be plenty wide enough for pretty much anything - well anything that’s rideable, and for what’s not rideable you have two feet. My 700 x 35C’s run in an ordinary road bike (a low end old Raleigh) and a lot of hybrid or trail bikes use 700 x 38C and have done so for ages … maybe see the second hand market and customise something to your tastes?

If I wanted new then Spa Cycles would be towards the top of my list. However I tend to buy second hand and then tweak what I’ve got to suit my needs.
Last edited by Carlton green on 6 Mar 2024, 9:05am, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
TheBomber
Posts: 529
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by TheBomber »

Before the term 'gravel' won the battle of the names, such bikes were normally called 'all road'. I've always preferred that description particularly when applied to long running favourites such as the aforementioned Genesis and Salsa.

Here's a few more for your consideration, though you'll certainly need to watch the geometry numbers after Slowster's astute observation:

Temple - Adventure
Soma - Double Cross
Condor -Bivio
Fairlight
Moss Bikes -Adventure
slowster
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Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by slowster »

MatthewV wrote: 5 Mar 2024, 5:27pm But it's not really good for anything offroad except the dryest and hardest ground - the 700x32C Marathons and my 77kg sink into mud, and sandy ground involves a lot of sliding about and is no fun at all. And there's not clearance for fitting chunkier tyres.
Interestingly, you have made no mention of disc brakes, which many people would consider essential for the conditions you describe. I do not know if you would be better served by disc brakes, because that ultimately depends on you, your personal preferences, and the riding that you are doing.

I suggest you read the thread linked below of freiston's. If I recall correctly, freiston has a traditional drop barred, rim braked tourer like your Super Galaxy, and the thread details his decision making for a new bike for riding off-road on muddy tracks (photographs of which are included).

viewtopic.php?t=156069

Ultimately it's all about what compromises you prefer, and what may be the best bike for muddy tracks in the winter, may not necessarily be the best bike for a summer tour of something like the Rebellion Way.
jimlews
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Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by jimlews »

slowster wrote: 5 Mar 2024, 9:48pm

Each 1 degree difference in seat tube angle is equivalent to approximately a ~10mm difference in top tube length. If your Super Galaxy has a 72 degree seat tube angle, you will find that the saddle will be ~10mm further forward on a bike with a 73 degree seat tube angle, and ~20mm if the seat tube angle is 74 degrees.
While it is true that seat tube angle has some influence on top tube length, you fail to mention seat tube length.
The 10mm difference would only apply for a specific seat tube length.
A shorter seat tube would result in a lesser difference than your 10mm and a longer seat tube would result in a greater difference, all else being equal.
MartinC
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Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by MartinC »

Well, it's not top tube length that matters for bike fit but the effective top tube length. This is only the same as the top tube length for horizontal top tubes. It will vary with the height you measure it at unless the head and seat tube angles are the same. Most people's main interest is in how much saddle setback they're going to get. Reach, Stack and seat tube angle give you an idea and the approximation of an centimetre less for each extra degree of seat tube angle works pretty well for average height people.
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531colin
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Re: Tourer for gentle off-roading?

Post by 531colin »

slowster wrote: 5 Mar 2024, 9:48pm I've just spotted that you have your saddle slammed back on a Velo Orange Gran Cru/Holdsworth/JTek seatpost, which gives more set back than almost any other seatpost apart from some fairly unusual and expensive models. Given your comments about how you have got the fit of your Super Galaxy just how you want it, I suspect many current bikes would not allow you to get the saddle as far back.

Each 1 degree difference in seat tube angle is equivalent to approximately a ~10mm difference in top tube length. If your Super Galaxy has a 72 degree seat tube angle, you will find that the saddle will be ~10mm further forward on a bike with a 73 degree seat tube angle, and ~20mm if the seat tube angle is 74 degrees.
^^^^^^^^THIS
Seat tube angle is the first thing I look at.
There is a long-running fashion for what somebody (R2) used to call “comedy seat tube angles”.
The further forward the saddle goes, the more weight is thrown onto your hands.
If you choose to ride on unsurfaced tracks you need to be able to ride with no weight at all on the handlebars; keep your weight on the pedals, keep your backside in contact with the saddle but with no real weight on the saddle, and the bike will move like a rocking horse underneath you. The saddle needs to be lower than current fashion dictates as well!
I use the formula 1degree on the seat tube angle is 10mm back or forward for the saddle( it’s a near enough approximation for “average male height”.)
Nitto make a lugged steel seatpost with more setback than yours.
It doesn’t get any easier as you get older, if anything my saddle goes back a bit every few years
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