Is this terminal?

[531colin]

I used to ride with a lass with a Ruby, hers had white Ali. corrosion where the seatstay and dropout joined, presumably where the 2 materials were joined, but I don’t remember that mechanical joint being there!

[531colin]

I think it’s beyond economic repair at a shop when Shimano stop selling compatible components.
No reason why enthusiasts can’t buy secondhand to keep a good bike going.

[cycle tramp]

...
Don't cut carbon fibre! There's more information now on the web that once carbon fibre dust enters your lungs it behaves in the same way as asbestos. Don't cut it, don't crush it.

There are risks to humans from carbon fibre dust. But it isn't clear that it can cause cancer in the same way as asbestos. There are some experimental studies that show similar reactions and they are concerning.

There are also other risks from its physical properties, including that it's electrically conductive and can get to places where that's a serious problem.

Cutting or drilling or similar should only be done after a competent risk assessment.

Thanks for pointing this out, as I didn't know it (which means there will be other readers that also didn't know it). The only carbon fibre component I've got is a front fork with an alloy steerer, so I haven't needed to do any cutting/drilling yet

The concerns about carbon fibre dust are only recently coming to light - which is of no comfort to the kit car and racing motorcycle builders who used to by it in thick sheets and use it to cut brackets, light mounts and instrument panels from it....

[531colin]

I recognise a difference between occupational exposure, which can be 40 hours a week and a cyclist cutting a couple of tubes every 10 years.

People used to saw asbestos cement sheet on building sites before that was outlawed about 50 years ago, I haven’t heard of hundreds of cases of asbestos related illness due to that historical exposure?
EDIT. I have now!

If carbon fibre is dangerous, manufacture will be done under containment. However, the containment will require servicing. ( fans ducts filters….)
The service engineers will wear personal protective equipment, but taking that off will inevitably disturb some dust from the PPE surface, so a “ protected” service engineer will be exposed to a little dust each working shift.

If the material requires extensive control and containment then it becomes uneconomic to use.

I come from a generation who used to blow out our brake drums at the roadside when we serviced our motor bikes and cars, and drilled holes in our asbestos cement garage roofs and gutter soffit. I wouldn’t grind it up and snort the powder, but I’m not aware of an asbestos risk in my age group from non occupational exposure, except for people living in the vicinity of an asbestos factory in Leeds which used to cover the neighbourhood with “snow”
Google “Armley snow”

[Jdsk]

...
People used to saw asbestos cement sheet on building sites before that was outlawed about 50 years ago, I haven’t heard of hundreds of cases of asbestos related illness due to that historical exposure?
...

"HSE has also published the annual figures for Mesothelioma, a cancer caused by past exposure to asbestos. The figures show 2,268 people died from the disease in 2021. This is a fall of 302 compared with the 2,570 deaths in 2020 and substantially lower than the average of 2,520 deaths per year over the period 2012-2019.":
https://press.hse.gov.uk/2023/07/06/wor ... published/

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

There are risks to humans from carbon fibre dust. But it isn't clear that it can cause cancer in the same way as asbestos. There are some experimental studies that show similar reactions and they are concerning.

There are also other risks from its physical properties, including that it's electrically conductive and can get to places where that's a serious problem.

Cutting or drilling or similar should only be done after a competent risk assessment.

Thanks for pointing this out, as I didn't know it (which means there will be other readers that also didn't know it). The only carbon fibre component I've got is a front fork with an alloy steerer, so I haven't needed to do any cutting/drilling yet

The concerns about carbon fibre dust are only recently coming to light - which is of no comfort to the kit car and racing motorcycle builders who used to by it in thick sheets and use it to cut brackets, light mounts and instrument panels from it....

There have been concerns about exposure to carbon fibre particles for decades.

There is new experimental evidence.

But what risks are you describing... skin inflammation, lung inflammation, cancer, specifically mesothelioma, something else?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Mike Sales]

Fifty years ago I was working in a gang which put composite floors into warehouses.
Another gang were sawing up asbestos for walls.
I expected the boss, a exceptionally foul mouthed man, to explode when I refused to sweep up the dust they left.
He said not a word, and did it himself

[531colin]

Jonathan, thanks for the numbers, you always know where to find stuff. Yup, that’s a lot of deaths. I assume those are occupational exposure deaths, not folk like me blowing out our brake drums…..? Only because of the greater occupational exposure?
Good that it’s going the right way, I doubt I’ll live long enough to find if there is a natural level of mesothelioma.

Talking of floors, I think fifties Marley tiles contained asbestos and were sanded on site after laying.

[Jdsk]

Jonathan, thanks for the numbers, you always know where to find stuff. Yup, that’s a lot of deaths. I assume those are occupational exposure deaths, not folk like me blowing out our brake drums…..? Only because of the greater occupational exposure?
Good that it’s going the right way, I doubt I’ll live long enough to find if there is a natural level of mesothelioma.
...

It's very hard to attribute individual deaths. Current estimates are that around 90% of deaths from mesothelioma in the UK are caused by exposure to asbestos, eg:
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about- ... sks-causes

IIRC we've recently passed the expected peak.

Jonathan

[cycle tramp]

Thanks for pointing this out, as I didn't know it (which means there will be other readers that also didn't know it). The only carbon fibre component I've got is a front fork with an alloy steerer, so I haven't needed to do any cutting/drilling yet

The concerns about carbon fibre dust are only recently coming to light - which is of no comfort to the kit car and racing motorcycle builders who used to by it in thick sheets and use it to cut brackets, light mounts and instrument panels from it....

There have been concerns about exposure to carbon fibre particles for decades.

There is new experimental evidence.

But what risks are you describing... skin inflammation, lung inflammation, cancer, specifically mesothelioma, something else?

Thanks

Jonathan

Mesothelioma... sadly it was experimental evidence until they introduced carbon fibre into the lungs of mice, where being the same size as asbestos fibres, the cells of the lungs were continually punctured until scar matter built up effectively stopping their lungs from working... there's a website somewhere about it..

[Jdsk]

The concerns about carbon fibre dust are only recently coming to light - which is of no comfort to the kit car and racing motorcycle builders who used to by it in thick sheets and use it to cut brackets, light mounts and instrument panels from it....

There have been concerns about exposure to carbon fibre particles for decades.

There is new experimental evidence.

But what risks are you describing... skin inflammation, lung inflammation, cancer, specifically mesothelioma, something else?

Mesothelioma... sadly it was experimental evidence until they introduced carbon fibre into the lungs of mice, where being the same size as asbestos fibres, the cells of tge lungs were continually punctured until scar matter built up effectively stopping their lungs from working... there's a website somewhere about it..

Thanks

That sounds like this sort of research:
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 17)30885-0

It's still experimental, not based on observation of any effects in exposed humans.

Jonathan

[cycle tramp]

...At this point given the similarities to that of lung cells throughout the range of mammals and that of carbon fibre to that of asbestos, perhaps we should be glad that concerns are being voiced now, before any medical examples appear...

...perhaps if we had been equally concerned before we adopted the use of asbestos alot of people could have avoided a painful death or the emotional trauma of watching a loved one die of the same...

Hence, my contunued warnings and my enduring presence on this forum...

..if at this point you'd like to try and score some more points by arguing how a mouse is different from a human, and that experiments on them don't translate, then be my guest - I suspect alot of animal rights activists would love to here them and will use them to explain why we shouldn't test medical drugs on animals.

[531colin]

…….That sounds like this sort of research:
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 17)30885-0

It's still experimental, not based on observation of any effects in exposed humans.

Jonathan

I really don’t like the sound of that.
Mesothelioma developed in a proportion of carbon fibre animals.
I have seen “a different insulating material of mineral origin” not causing mesothelioma; physical shape of particles was different.

[tim-b]

I come from a generation who used to blow out our brake drums at the roadside when we serviced our motor bikes and cars

Me too. There is research to suggest that a combination of low overall exposure and changes to the fibres caused by braking reduces risk in the occasional DIY-er https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 19.1568385

Jonathan will doubtless burst my bubble on the veracity of the study methodology

It's definitely not an experiment to try at home, follow HSE advice

[Jdsk]

I come from a generation who used to blow out our brake drums at the roadside when we serviced our motor bikes and cars

Me too. There is research to suggest that a combination of low overall exposure and changes to the fibres caused by braking reduces risk in the occasional DIY-er https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 19.1568385

Jonathan will doubtless burst my bubble on the veracity of the study methodology
...

Interesting paper, thanks.

It has two distinct strands: a review of the epidemiological findings and a discussion of the particular types of asbestos used in brakes and how they might be modified by braking.

The conclusions of the first strand are consistent with other reviews: workers in vehicle trades don't seem to be at high risk of asbestos-related death in the same way as workers in construction:
https://researchbriefings.files.parliam ... 3-0079.pdf

That's probably the closest match for DIY fettlers, and the duration of exposure is presumably less for most of those than for paid workers.

There are official statistics specifically for mesothelioma, but they aren't easy to follow, and don't seem to identify vehicle trades:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/asset ... pation.pdf

Jonathan

PS: As always I'd recommend anyone new to the subject to read explainers and reviews rather than individual research studies.