Search found 27 matches

by tippo12
28 Nov 2023, 11:17am
Forum: Does anyone know … ?
Topic: Cycling when very overweight - advice on bike suitability and getting started
Replies: 23
Views: 9417

Re: Cycling when very overweight - advice on bike suitability and getting started

Very late to the party on this one, but with 65 years of tandem and 60+ years of solo riding under my wheels as an ex rugby and basketball player, average about 120kg for the last 30+ years so I have knowledge of this specialist subject rather than the assumptions and conjecture of most experienced, typically lightweight, cyclists.

Rule 1 is forget warranties. Tandem manufacturers have fitted brakes on new tandems not warranted for tandem use since the subject was first mentioned 40 years ago. A friend had his old Dawes steel frame crack through while commuting, he had bought the frame new with a "lifetime" warranty so went back to Dawes, who told him a "lifetime" was 6 or 7 years, as agreed with the then CTC and cycle trade! Campag had an 80kg rider weight limit for warranty of all their components back in the 80s and 90s, I haven't checked recently since I don't buy carbon cranks etc but I guess it is the same or less these days. I have ridden this "unwarranted" campy kit for 30+ years, much of it hard usage over the alps on tandem - we had a place in Savoie for 20 years - but never had a campy part break.

Rule 2 is buy a quality frame made by a touring bike frame specialist, NOT made of alloy or carbon. Steel or ti lasts. I sold my parents 1953 tandem last year, steel frame still fine after 69 years of regular riding, never had a steersman on it under 18 stones in weight (My dad was 6'6" and bigger than me overall) and crew weight was usually at the 25+stone mark, plus at times camping luggage, children on crossbar seats, trailerbike, bob yak etc.

Rule 3 is spokes WILL break under heavier riders. UNLESS. My spokes hand broke consistently after stainless became commonplace, especially solo commuting, riding in dark and wet in cities - until I discovered Sapim strong spokes (in the 80s?) I build my own wheels, use a tensiometer by DT and have had only two spoke breakages in the last 25 years, both on on solo not tandem. I think having only 32 or 36 spokes on solo (Campy 10 sp) is the limiting factor, tandems I ride are all 48 or 40 spoke and have been 100% reliable apart from hub flange failures, but that is a whole other topic.

So from my experience, buy steel or ti frames and build with Sapim Strong spokes, then the overweight rider does not have extra bike maintenance and reliability issues more than a lighter rider.
One word of advice to e newbie larger cyclist - when struggling to keep in touch with the back wheel of the skinny's on the climb, you WILL fly past them on the descent - gravity works like that!
by tippo12
14 Sep 2023, 10:20am
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Move FD further out?
Replies: 6
Views: 566

Re: Move FD further out?

Moving your chainset 2mm outward will not affect the operation of anything at all, but I would very much doubt that it will alter your position on the bike enough to stop any knee pain, and I would have thought +2mm is unlikely to stop you heel scuffing the chainstay. My feet are a 13 or 14 shoe size so float on cleats often results in heel clipping, I used it as an excuse to buy a couple of solo titanium frame bikes so I know I will never damage the paint job on the stay. I like red cleats that give float enough to heel clip the stay but then my knee ops (rugby and footy) started in 1974, my experience is that cleat float is wonderful, esp. compared to the nailed on blocks of old, and far more effective in managing knee pain than bb length.
Tandem riders like me have addressed this FD scenario for years because manufacturers seek stronger, less dished rear wheels with double loads, so rear wheel OLD on all Santana tandems (of which I have had 2 for 20 years total riding) is 160mm. My other tandems have been 145 or 140mm OLN. This moves the chainline way out so Santana for instance use 130mm octalink or 135mm taper bottom brackets and a "far out" FD mount adapter which moves front mech WAY OUT. Similar adapters are currently available from Precision tandems in either 6mm and 13mm offset and SJS do an eccentric plastic shim with a couple of mm adjustment but if your seat tube is 34mm it wont fit.

I have 65 years tandem riding/building/fettling behind me, have bought or built myself and then sold at least a dozen tandems in the last 25 years in search of "improvements" and all the front mechs used worked perfectly despite the cable angles etc, but beyond 122mm bb axle lengths you do need an offset FD mount, and a chain drop device to keep it on the granny!
Look after your knees -Baz Lurhmann got it spot on.
Cheers
Tip
"look after your knees, you will miss them when they are gone" BL.
by tippo12
6 Jun 2022, 11:25am
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: chain lube or wax?
Replies: 76
Views: 4674

Re: UFO Drip chain lube

Two pennerth for wax from another old git who used 3 in 1 for the first 40 years of cycling life. My background is 60+ years riding tandems, cycle commuting to school, college, work, RSF type with old git CTC tendencies and lifetime of cycle camping tours etc, all while weighing in at over 120kg - so I destroy chains (and back wheels).

I used Putoline when it was called Linklyfe - from the late 70s onwards, initially on motorcycle trials bike chains as its ability to shed grit and mud made it a real winner, but the smell when cooking chains meant the old "biscuit tin" of wax on a camping stove lived in the shed, it worked better than scott oilers etc but needed REGULAR re treatment. Once motorbikes got bigger and faster O ring chains were not at all friendly for regular chain removal and cleaning, so the tin retired to shed shelf until I read a research article from the States many years ago, they found the least friction on a bicycle chain from using water as a lube, whilst acknowledging this info is not really helpful. Second best lube beating all the oils was paraffin wax, hence my decision to reuse the old tin of motorcycle wax/graphite chain stuff in the shed on my bicycles.
At the time, about 2006 we were destroying an 8 speed drive chain on a tandem (used 52 weeks a year) every 800 winter to 1200 summer miles (measured after every ride with Park chain checker). Sets of rings and cassettes were replaced at least annually. I tried every manufacturers chains, none, not even Rohloff showed significantly longer mileage. I tried wet, dry, 3 in 1 and expensive lubes of every type, chain scrubbers, paraffin parts cleaners, and seemed to spend a day a week covered in dirty oil and chemicals. About that time I bought 25kg of chain offcuts from SJS Cycles (mostly SRAM 8 speed) as we were using so many chains.

For well over 10 years now I have used putoline, in a £6 slow cooker from Wilko and it works perfectly well on push bike chains. No need to wipe off with solvents or pre clean chains before re coating, simply put them dirty into the melted wax pot for 10 minutes and jiggle them about a bit before lifting them off to drain, I hang mine on bent old spokes, they drip dry! When dry I rub them with a large scouring pad to remove excess from the outer plates, scraping go back into the pot. I remove and clean wax buildup off the chain rings, cassette and jockey wheel cage about once every 2 years, one sunny day and the whole fleet gets done.

I run three chains on each bike, one on, two ready, and swap chains at about 200 mile intervals, which is fine for days rides. On holidays if not using the camper van I take a bottle of white wax lube to "top up" until we get home, old knees means we don't tour for longer than a week these days. When I turn the pot on to lube one chain that is wet or after 200 miles I re lube the chains fitted on all the other bikes at the same time as quick links make it a 2 minute job, and ensures chains are always ready to go! I am still using that same first tin of lube, £25 tin of lube and £6 slow cooker have so far lubed a family of bikes/tandems in two homes for over a decade.

CONS: Wax lubes have NO RUSTPROOFING properties, if it rains or you have a wet ride, you immediately have to re-treat the chain.
When you get home cold and wet from a winter ride if you forgot to turn that slow cooker on before going out you will curse..........
PROS: My road bikes, one here and one in Ireland with Ma in law, both run Campy 10 speed, and are on the same 3 Record chains and Campy chain rings and cassettes that have been fitted now for 10+ years, no discernible teeth wear and none of the chains have more than 0.4mm wear yet on the CC1. I like that.
Our Tandem is running 8 speed Campy rings and cassette with SRAM chain (the old pre Portugal stuff, as stated above I have a stock of chain) it has taken three years to wear the first drive chain to replacement at 1mm stretch measured on the CC1.
No oily legs or clothes, especially welcomed by Senior management on the rear of the tandem, and on her town bike and mtb.
That is an hour of my life typing that I will not get back. I am not looking for a contest or an argument, just voicing personal experience in case someone else may want to enjoy the same wax lube life benefits that I do.
by tippo12
3 Mar 2021, 4:56pm
Forum: Helmets & helmet discussion
Topic: Large Helmets
Replies: 64
Views: 16499

Re: Large Helmets

Just a thought on WHY there is really no availability of extra X large helmets. No Profits!

Back in the late 70s to early 80s Maggie Thatcher decided to buy Riot hats for English coppers, the first ones were green (NI Army Issue) but with the flexible neck guard replaced with a cheapo peak and painted dark blue the Police Riot helmet was born. As a lad I had size 64 titfer helmets at work so knew I was on the Bigedd side, but by wearing open face could get XXL Bell motorbike hats on. About the same time I was being measured for a Police full face motorcycle helmet, as some H&S type had decided our comfy open face helmets were no good anymore. The reason all this swinging the blue lamp is relevant is that I couldn't get the provided full face biker helmet to fit, nor could I get an "open" face riot hat that fitted. At the time the demographic was for larger men in the Police, to join the job there was a minimum height and weight requirement so the target audience did not need many small sized lids. The stores manager at WMP told me they had initially ordered several thousand Riot hats, in sizes 1 to 4, and FIVE hats in size 5. I was very lucky and got one of those five, but in a commercial venture no-one was going to sell or stock a one in ten thousand size. The motorcycle lids were sorted more pragmatically. Those of us with "abnormal" heads were sent out to find full face lids that fitted, in white, on the basis we all had our own bikes and helmets, and the job paid for whatever we chose and stuck the badges etc on. My biker lid ended up as an Arai, labelled as size 64, and despite the recommended 2 year service life I still have it to this day. It IS comfy.
In the early 2000s by chance I worked for a short time in a small team with two chaps (one known as GBH - harking back to earlier times) with exceptionally large heads, sizes 67 and a 68 if memory serves, who threatened to take action for discrimination at work as they were not afforded the chance to be riot trained as the available helmets didn't fit, not even my size 5. Eventually they were sent off to the helmet manufacturer for custom fitting, which involved a lot less padding inside the same outer shell, so less safe and at a cost, although a cost of several thousand each for riot helmets was we were told cheaper to the job than the cost of losing two discrimination cases.

So with a personal fitting and several grand in your pocket you can always get a helmet that fits, if not wear suncream!
by tippo12
28 Sep 2019, 7:26pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: 10 speed midrange gears using 11-32 cassette query
Replies: 14
Views: 1259

Re: 10 speed midrange gears using 11-32 cassette query

Is there any reason you don't use a triple chainset? I have found that a granny ring solves all climbing problems without needing mtb cassettes with wide ratios at the rear, (unless on the tandems) I use campy 10 speed 13-29 and 50/40/24 triple on my solos which solve the problem while retaining small ratio changes in the mid range "usually used all day" ratios
by tippo12
24 Feb 2017, 9:38pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: How to get a TRP Hy/Rd caliper to work
Replies: 22
Views: 3977

Re: How to get a TRP Hy/Rd caliper to work

I am using a HyRd on 2004 Shimano Ultergra 6603 triple levers on the rear of a tandem, been fitted for about two or three years as I bought the caliper from the first batch that came into the UK to replace a bengal, that had replaced a winzip that had replaced a bb7........
The HyRd worked as well as any other hydro caliper for about 3 months then had all the adjustment/lever throw problems mentioned by previous contributors although pad wear was not bad. The brake stopped self adjusting despite correct setup and after I complained to the importer they simply asked for an emailed photo of the brake and it was replaced free of charge with "version 2" - distinguishable by the "mineral oil" graphic moving to the outer side of the reservoir having been on the inner side on version 1. I suggest that is the first thing to check as version 2 works wonderfully well as main stopper on a tandem with heavy crew off the old style shimano levers and is still on first set of pads after two years use.

All my other bikes have 10sp. ergos and have campy's " large hand" spacers fitted under the bar clamp which gives a good 1+" extra lever throw and means they works well with any sort of brake, including avid black ops v brakes on my other tandem. Haven't seen these spacers in shops for years but if you are a campy fan then search them out, they are the solution.
by tippo12
24 Sep 2016, 1:20pm
Forum: Does anyone know … ?
Topic: cannondale synapse carbon ultegra - heavy rider.
Replies: 23
Views: 4105

Re: cannondale synapse carbon ultegra - heavy rider.

Hi
Your problem will be spoke losses, even at 100Kg. You will be putting stresses through the driveside spokes that regular cyclists just don't come anywhere near. I am currently 125kg and have been over 100kg for decades, as I am 6,4" and a former basketball and rugby player, a lifelong bike rider but never a racing cyclist.
I have almost sixty years experience on solos and riding tandems - now there is a true study in what lasts under load - and have built all my wheels for 20 years or more, experience means I recommend for solo use 32 (min) preferably 36 rear spokes laced x3 cross using Sapim Strong, on the drive side if not both sides. This limits your wheel choice to proper handmade wheels not the wheelsets sold by manufacturers.
The components in your groupset are NOT made by your frame maker so do not have the same 100kg warranty. I ride campy record stuff on my solos but in the knowledge that the whole groupset has an 80kg warranted rider weight limit, so do not expect factory made wheelsets to be any different to an 80kg limit. None of the component manufacturers warrant their product for 100kg riders. Manufacturers are selling high end kit that for decades has only sold to dedicated "typical cyclists" who are slim to the extreme so weight over 80kg has never been an issue. Now that cycling is becoming fashionable with monied middle age men a problem is starting to emerge. I understand Boardman Pro bikes (now CB has sold the low end ranges to Halfords) are releasing their top end stuff soon which will include ti framed bikes for the "larger" riders now so keen on cycling, they clearly understand the problem of carbon frames for big riders.
For over 10 years I have ridden ti frames, hand made in Italy not China (a Rewel and an Opera Palladio), with Reynolds Ouzo pro forks (no longer made sadly) so I do not fear carbon frame breakages. The late George Longstaff, the UK's top tandem framebuilder tested the tandem version of the carbon Ouzo fork to destruction and stated afterwards that he could not make one that strong in steel so was happy to recommend them for tandem use - it is the design, material quality and and build quality you buy not the material it is made of that counts, but no-one is now manufacturing or marketing carbon bits for bigger riders. We ride mainly a thirteen year old Santana Beyond tandem with carbon/ti frame and carbon Ouzo tandem fork, problem free including lots of alpine stuff in France every year, crew weight 185kg with 40 spoke wheels so it can be done.
Good luck and keep pedalling whatever
by tippo12
21 Aug 2016, 11:38pm
Forum: Does anyone know … ?
Topic: Group riding vs 'Sportive' style
Replies: 25
Views: 2142

Re: Group riding vs 'Sportive' style

Sadly you are talking about the world changing and the whims of fashion to which we then add today's lack of manners generally, whilst hoping beyond hope that because these middle aged middle income newbies bought a carbon bike instead of the golf clubs the previous generation like them went for that somehow that would make them balanced reasonable people. Ho hum then. I was wearing Lycra as a youngster (ish) when it was called spandex, and was a great advance on needle cord "shorts". As I am soon to pass from middle age to OAP I somehow doubt that the blanket MAMIL term will trouble me much longer but it too summarises the problem of us all being lumped together in the eye of the public.

Learning the local lanes behind a chap who wore a cap (not a cycling cap either) and changed gear twice a season, but was never lost and rode at 16mph all day for up to 130 mile a day was for me time well spent. Group riding skills meant you were an asset to your club/group not a liability when on the road.

I was previously unaware of the term "sportive rider" as a group noun for the "new useless cycling gits" before finding this thread, but I now see that the cycling world has decided not to try and develop and improve them, but rather accept there presence like cuckoo chicks. I have to admit we have none in my local riding groups, but that is perhaps because those that showed up were told to learn to ride our way or push off elsewhere. I do have my doubts about the long term prospects of a personality type who pay £40 up to ride a public road route that they can ride for free next week.

Give it another ten years and the sociables will still be out there while I suspect the mamil sportivos will be back on the fairways and clubhouses.
C'est la vie.
by tippo12
7 Apr 2016, 11:14pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimergo 8 -> Campag 10 nearly straightforward, but . . .
Replies: 25
Views: 1375

Re: Shimergo 8 -> Campag 10 nearly straightforward, but . .

If you buy the 10sp long cage mech it will all work fine beyond the range you describe.
I have been running two bikes on identical set ups for 10 years plus , one bike lives in France at a place out there.
Record 10sp triple with 53/42/24 (stainless steel granny by engagemnet rings so no chain suck even with 10sp.) on to 13-29 with long cage record rear mech.
I use a deda dog fang on both bikes to stop the otherwise inevitable drop off the granny when changing down into it, otherwise it works flawlessly.
The chain just clears the bottom of the front mech cage on the 4 biggest sprockets, and will just stretch round 53-29, although I would never use it on those two.
This setup has enabled me to keep riding, even in the alps, for a few extra years but only today I saw a surgeon who will be operating on my knee shortly (osteotomy) to try and give me a few more years - that 24 T granny make ALL the difference.
by tippo12
8 May 2015, 2:55pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Hydraulic Brakes for a tandem
Replies: 35
Views: 4376

Re: Hydraulic Brakes for a tandem

Have any of the authors of prior postings tried searching the tandem club website for "disk brakes", or checked out the USA based tandem blogs?. All the above points have been debated many times over many years.
I have used most types of disc brake available - since curiosity led me to replace my SA tandem hub with an all steel shimano disk in the 1970's - I speak as one with with 57 years regular tandem riding experience, having ridden many different tandems with various braking systems for 5 decades. We have a place in France near the bottom of the Col de Madeleine and consequently I also have more experience than most of both on and off road alpine descents on tandems.
I have three tandems currently, two with arai drag brakes operated by the steersman with bar end ratchet levers - they are simply the most reliable and user friendly for lengthy descents, or on poor surfaces.
I found (2004 to 2012 ish) Hope monoti6 on 8" rotors the best off road hydraulic disk brake, but always had a Magura rim or v brake backup as a 3rd rear brake - the Hopes did fail when older and became obsolete through non availability of spares.
The best disk brake, and the only one I use now is the 10" rotor by Bengal, which is specified OEM only by Santana (I guess it needs 160mm OLN for the stays to clear it).
Although using cable operated calipers on sti road levers this is more powerful than any hydraulic brakes I have used , but I guess if you added your favourite hydro caliper it would be equally as good. I am personally convinced that the larger diameter rotor alone is what makes the brake better.
My last disk braked tandem is now on its third rear caliper in six years, all of them cable operated. Supplied from new with avid bb7 (plastic dial adjuster melts and then pad drops out) then the bengal (pads overheat and retaining magnets de-magnetise - then the pads fall out)
I am now on a non tandem warranted HyRd caliper. It has the huge advantage that it does not brush the rotor at all when pedaling as both pads are retractable. Its not just the drag factor, the other types are annoyingly NOISY with one pad is fixed.
The HyRd has no plastic parts and "proper" pad retaining spring clips and so avoids the faults of it's two predecessors, the mineral oil master cylinder is built into the caliper but it has not yet overheated. I also use "pattern" electric bike rated brake pads supplied by well known German online retailers and designed to work at higher temperatures generated by heavier machines. The 10" rotors blue on long descents but do not warp, unlike my experience of Hope rotors.
If anyone is interested they are available online.
http://www.precisiontandems.com/cat_pics/brrotor10.jpg
by tippo12
15 Apr 2015, 12:21am
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Do Campagnolo make the best chains in the world?
Replies: 40
Views: 4648

Re: Do Campagnolo make the best chains in the world?

Yes
A few years ago I bought a clearance box of chain, about 25 or 30kg of "offcutts and sweepings" from SJS, who clearly use the bulk chain on rolls. I paid £25 or £30 on fleabay, which was about the cost of shipping, they clearly wanted rid of them. I did this as I was wrecking 4 or 5 chains a year per tandem and it was getting costly, I was running a fleet of five tandems and eight solos, mixed road and mtb, all 8 sp. shimano.
Time consuming use of my chaintool resulted in 100+ PC41 chains, all brand new links and mostly the v.old higher quality ones - prior to manufacture changing country of origin - plus at least two dozen assorted other chains. These chains lasted between 800m to 1500m each used as drivechains on tandems with a heavy team riding lots of alpine stuff and UK winters - I use a park CC2 device to ensure regular chain wear checks. Only one chain snapped in the last 15 years so no problems with assembly techniques. I have given the remaining chains away to friends in the local tandem club in the last couple of years as I will never work through them all as I have now converted to Campag 10 speed on all bikes (2 solos and 2 tandems).
I bought a campy 10sp solo second hand in 2005 and was amazed that the drive chain just kept going and going and going.
The campy record 10sp chains last for about 5 to 8 times the mileage of shimano, (I have one 10sp "shimano" tandem which, after five shimano xt dynasys chains shredded at under 1000m each, runs campy 10sp chain too) although this may be helped by the superior quality metals used in the campy rings and sprockets which also outlast others by a x4 to x5 margin. I used one Wipperman connex 10sp. chain - it cost more than a record 10sp - and it lasted only about 1.5 times the mileage of a shimano/sram chain, under 2000miles. My latest solo campy 10sp ran 3000m before the chain tool detected even the first movement away from 0% stretch, whereas the sram and shimano chains I have fitted (into the hundreds of them by now) all read from 10 to 20% stretch when fitted new, so I question the design parameters/quality control.
I loved the shifting qualities of shimano, the best being the sublime XT 10sp dynasys shimano directional chains, they are the best gear changing chains I have ever used, but after 5 years of exposure to campy in my 50's I made a conscious decision not to support other manufacturers by buying 5 chains when instead I can buy just one campy.
by tippo12
17 Nov 2014, 5:50pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Freewheel removal U plus 2 trailer
Replies: 55
Views: 4070

Freewheel removal U plus 2 trailer

I have acquired an old (pre Pashley, pre Brilliant bikes) Cresswell u plus 2 trailer, and am hoping to renovate it for my grandkids, step one is to get it powder coated, after disassembly.
The Problem.
I am unable to remove the freewheel, a Shimano 6 speed block, as their is insufficient clearance from the trike rear frame to get a freewheel removal tool (not even an NBT2) onto the block.
The block appears to be mounted onto an alloy carrier which has 32mm flats and I presume the carrier is bolted to the axle, but unable so see how or get a tool inside the block at all.
The driven wheel hub shell is simply "swaged" onto the long driven axle which looks like a steel bar, and has no flats or way to prevent axle rotation at either end.
I phoned Pashley but they simply told me to use a chain whip and a 32mm spanner, but that can only tighten the block on to the carrier/axle?????

Anyone got experience of how to remove the block so I can get the frame shotted?
by tippo12
1 Jun 2014, 11:02pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Mystery mounting holes in forks
Replies: 6
Views: 1482

Re: Mystery mounting holes in forks

These are specialist dynamo mounting holes for a lightspin dynamo, which are no longer made.
by tippo12
4 Apr 2014, 2:36am
Forum: Does anyone know … ?
Topic: wheel building & different spoke types on either side
Replies: 73
Views: 5360

Re: wheel building & different spoke types on either side

After many years of only posting on the Tandem club website I have tonight for the first time read page after page here about spokes and wheel building and feel I am as qualified as most (not Colin) to chip in with my thoughts. I build my own wheels, have done for decades, and for the last 10 years or so have used a DT tensiometer, plus I make sure that I check rim manufacturers spec. sheets for max. tensions permitted. I have experience of many extra durable wheel builds (8 tandems of my own so far including tandem mtb for alpine use only) which previous contributors speculate about, so will simply report my personal findings.
I have ridden tandems since 1958, and am currently close to 20 stone, never below my rugby playing weight of 17, my wife is a svelt 57kg and always has been. I have however toured with the added weight of two kids plus camping gear for four - I never weighed it all fully loaded as it would be too depressing, but we pedalled it all round on various European holidays.
From the late 50's sturmey drum brake hubs 32F/40R with 13 gauge rustless spokes on Dunlop tandem rims provided faultless service, even with a sidecar attached.
from the mid 70's 12 gauge (plain) French moped spokes were fitted to Exelto hubs (all French moped kit supplied through the Tandem Club Tech. officer) 120mm sprung to 126mm OLN so derailleur gears were now possible, once again spokes never failed, wheels never trued. The practical downside of 12 gauge apart from non availability is that hubs need drilling out and holes deburred properly, rims need drilling so only non box section are usable and only steel ones seem strong enough to tension the spoke enough. In the 1990's a frame refurb. meant Hope 48 spoke tandem hubs with SS 13/14 spokes were fitted on Sun rims, after only 24 years both wheels are still true with never a spoke key on them again - rims can it seems last forever with hub/disk brakes. In about 2005 the 1953 frame left home to live with my sister and family, a Santana with 160mm OLN dishless rear wheel was bought, it is so good I now have two of the beasts.
I have not re-trued a tandem wheel or lost a tandem spoke since 1990ish, the 48h 135mm OLN hubs were faultless (apart from cassette carrier renewals) as were the 40h dishless Hadley hub wheels that replaced them.
My solo commuting bike (shift work so lots of unavoidable hitting water filled holes on city streets in the dark) had three rear wheels used in rotation when it was a normal 36H road format, such was the attrition rate of spokes. For almost 10 years now on solo I have ridden campy record hubs laced SS plain gauge drive side and db 17/15/17 non ds and although annual checks and retensioning are carried out have never lost a spoke. These wheels are a bugger to build with "even" spoke tension as the drive side so dominates the nds, and take at least 3 times as long as those using the same spokes both sides, but the end result seems worth it, on a solo wheel SS all round (unless laden touring) gives a very uncomfortable rear "end". Since rim wear led to chrina rims, annual retensioning is obsolete/unecessary.
I will confess to many years of rough stuff and mtb soloing as well as the tandems, and I would recommend the Sapim strong spokes to anyone who is over the "campy warranted" 80kg or subjects wheels to abuse beyond the usual, with db spokes non ds when on an unladen road bike but SS all round otherwise.