Search found 206 matches

by sussex cyclist
18 Dec 2022, 9:46pm
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

Personal current events leave me unable to put together a proper post (these things take me a lot of time). To whom it may concern: please endeavour to ensure that what you want to know about my views hasn't already been posted. My last one is here, wherein may also be found a very good overview of concerns in the video of an interview with a transgender person.

I'll be back. (No guesses what that links to.)
by sussex cyclist
18 Dec 2022, 7:00am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

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Nearholmer wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 2:46pm
It would also be nice to gather as many people as possible into this discussion.
Discussion of what, though? What is the proposition, or question?

At the moment it feels like one of those occasions when a person stands in the middle of a town square staring upwards, and before long a crowd of other people have gathered, all staring at he sky and wondering what the dickens they are meant to be looking at ……. Before they all drift away, muttering that they’ve “been had”.
A proposition is a statement or assertion that expresses a judgement or opinion. I've already offered up several of these, including that J.K. Rowling and Rachel Rooney were badly mistreated – Rowling absolutely monstered – for the crime of practising free speech in a way that nobody sensible should have a problem with; that sex (not gender) is binary; that transgender people's feelings are prioritised over those who are gender critical; that there were good reasons for systems in place that are rapidly being dismantled, in many cases, without proper public scrutiny.
James Kirkup wrote:A major international law firm has helped write a lobbying manual for people who want to change the law to prevent parents having the final say about significant changes in the status of their own children. That manual advises those lobbying for that change to hide their plans behind a ‘veil’ and to make sure that neither the media nor the wider public know much about the changes affecting children that they are seeking to make. Because if the public find out about those changes, they might well object to them.
The main issue is reconciling the demands of trans activists with the rights of women, who are far more affected than men by these changes. Which brings us to the subject of empathy.

Let's talk about empathy. The ability to understand and share the feelings of others.

I've been with my wife long enough to know her very well indeed, but if there's one thing I can never know, no matter how attuned I am to her moods, is what it's like to be a woman.

A woman who like her friends at the time was so frequently sexually harassed as a child and teenager on public transport just trying to get somewhere that she took to carrying pins to discourage groping; who bled once a month for 40 years, and for the last 14 has been greatly suffering from very female problems that come with perimenopause and menopause, with no end in sight; who was discriminated against in the very male dominated field she chose as a career; who was subjected to sotto voce lewd comments for years on the busy streets of London by respectable men in suits; and who doesn't enjoy the freedom I feel as a man to walk down a random street at night without a care in the world. Who sees what happened to Sarah Everhard, or reads the latest horror story of the law graduate stomped to death, and shudders in a much more visceral way than I can.

So when a man rocks up and says he's really a woman, and that he wants to share some of her spaces, be it a public toilet, a hospital room where intimate care is administered, or thank god not for my wife, a rape shelter, she rather takes exception. Outside of those spaces (and prisons, and the aforementioned sports, and perhaps a few others), it matters not.

The vast majority of transwomen retain their penises. Good for them. With or without the relevant anatomy, they are still going to be stronger than her (remember we're comparing sex classes, not necessarily individuals), which has relevance in all the above scenarios. When it comes to violent crimes, transwomen offend at the same rate as men, which is stratospherically higher than women.

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pwa wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 8:55am So how do we, the non-trans people, accommodate those going through this process of change? How, for example, do we react to a person still with male genitalia who identifies as a woman and wishes to use female-only facilities? Is it enough that they themselves say they are female? If we say "yes" to that, does doing so open a door for male abusers of women?
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Cowsham wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 11:24am Billy bragg changed the lyrics to his song "Sexuality" but it'll never ever replace the original " Sexuality" song by Prince -- it's a masterpiece. 10 times funkier and 10 years before.

Sexuality is all you'll ever need.
Sexuality let your body be free. - - -- -- -
Billy goes Godwin.
Jdsk wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 1:08pm there is no "right" definition that can be used to allocate every individual to one of only two categories of gender. That includes the levels of "biological" or "genetic" or "chromosomal".
When we talk about the science we need to be careful not to conflate sex with gender, which is a social construct. That video I linked to is probably the most accessible and concise refutation of the claims that sex isn't binary. It's an antidote to those taken in by the increasingly unScientific American. I would love to see a rebuttal of it.

Developmental biologist Emma Hilton (Substack / Twitter / YouTube) is also very good, and like Magdalen, tired of suffering fools.
Jdsk wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 1:13pm In a typical female-only public toilet with a shared washing area and cubicles how would anyone else know that someone had male external genitalia?
Well, these days increasing numbers of them like to share it on their phones.
Carlton green wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 1:19pm Rather than surgery being ‘the (one and only) answer’ I’d really like to see societal changes such that people become comfortable in their own skin
Me too. That's what Rooney's book says to kids.
Nearholmer wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 12:43pm ...the progress of gender reassignment technology...
Even if I were to take female hormones, have the chop, facial feminisation surgery, and voice training, the result would only ever be an approximation of what a woman looks and sounds like. Most people could still tell I'm a man, even by my gait. We evolved to be able to identify each other's sex with remarkable accuracy (and no, online photos don't count). If we hadn't, none of us would be here.
Ben@Forest wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 12:50pm frankly l preferred not being in unisex changing rooms.
Me too. Going back into the bogs for a minute, and sorry if this is TMI, but I have a shy bladder. This means I simply cannot go in the open company of men, never mind women, even though neither constitutes a threat to me. This is only a problem when the stalls are all occupied, making for some uncomfortable standing around at times.

Perhaps this has given me an extra dose of empathy for those who have the more usual privacy concerns now being handwaved away.
axel_knutt wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 2:50pmIt's not something I've given a great deal of thought to, I'm aware that JKR has come in for some flak, but from reading a little of what she's reported to have said rather than what she's actually said.
World's worst game of Telephone.
On the general subject of free speech, one of this year's Reith Lectures covered the current fashion for trying to silence anyone with views that are not popular. If you have heard it, you should have a listen, it really is very good
It's a shame Zoe Williams, in her recent interview with Adichie, proved herself such a poor listener.
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie wrote:We now live in broad settled ideological tribes. We no longer need to have real discussions because our positions are already assumed, based on our tribal affiliation. Our tribes demand from us a devotion to orthodoxy and they abide not reason, but faith.
axel_knutt wrote:My view is that we all have choices available in life, which invariably come with both advantages and disadvantages, and I think it's a bit naive, if not childish to think that you can go through life presented with choices that have only beneifts and no costs. Perhaps forfeiting the right to enter womens sport events is one of the costs.
Because that deserved large print too.

Women are not hormonally-hobbled men.
Nearholmer wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 9:16am hard categorisation could fairly simply be eliminated in most other things, public toilets, gym changing rooms etc most easily of all.

Whether ‘women only’ or ‘men only’ spaces of other kinds need to exist, or should exist, I’m never sure.
See below.
reohn2 wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 7:12pm I reckon when people let other people be who they want to be* and accept that,we'll be living in a better society.

*providing they aren't harming others in that choice.
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To say nothing of how the dynamic between a group of women almost always changes when a man enters the room, or the unfortunate loss of privacy for, say, girls in school, often embarassed or harassed - sometimes much worse - after the abandonment of safeguarding norms.

Female spaces aren't for males, or even other females, to give away. Too many fought too hard to get them in the first place.

I think most of us are more than happy to let people be who they want to be. We just need to keep an honest tally.
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 3:11pm
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

Cugel wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 3:04pm So, we are all going to become gender and sexuality experts by watching a few vids on Youboob and avidly supping up other rather academic observations of a somewhat dry and reductionsist kind, eh? Yes, discussotainment hoves into view. :-)

Cugel, still very ignorant on the subject .... but knows so.
This is precisely why I didn't, for my own part, want to do this piecemeal. Everything becomes fragmented and impossible to follow.

Of course a video or two, and the appeals to authority I mentioned, aren't going to make us experts. It's just information you can use, or not, as you wish. And now I've just done it again: replied when I should be snoozing, as I promised my wife I'd be doing by now. I don't tend to get much sleep…

on edit (of course): what I meant was excessively piecemeal. I prefer to save my energy for longer posts.
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 2:52pm
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

Nearholmer wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 2:46pm
It would also be nice to gather as many people as possible into this discussion.
Discussion of what, though?

What is the proposition, or question?

At the moment it feels like one of those occasions when a person stands in the middle of a town square staring upwards, and before long a crowd of other people have gathered, all staring at he sky and wondering what the dickens they are meant to be looking at ……. Before they all drift away, muttering that they’ve “been had”.
Well, you could watch the video in the link I provided - it's only 9 minutes long - soak up Jonathan's post, then head in that direction. As I said, I'll be back later to address yours and other queries. Meanwhile I'm content to watch the conversation develop naturally.

Here's that link again: https://youtu.be/OKdhsDfSmiE
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 2:24pm
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

There is so much to address at this point, and I'd rather avoid doing it piecemeal where possible, so I may be some time. (Cue inevitable comparison to Lawrence Oates. It is cold and snowy where I am. Hmmm…)

It would also be nice to gather as many people as possible into this discussion. So please, if you're reading this and haven't yet contributed, give serious thought to joining us. I don't think any of us bite (satire doesn't count), and I reckon we're capable of keeping this civil.

I'll leave you with this for the moment, concerning the science. If you don't agree with it you can almost certainly find your own authority or interpreter of authority. I think it's a good start as we head down this particular strand of the debate.

https://youtu.be/OKdhsDfSmiE

On further edit: I see Jonathan got in just as I was fixing something. I don't envy people just starting to wrap their head around all this!
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 12:10pm
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Conundrum
Replies: 15
Views: 931

Conundrum

If you learn from your mistakes, does that mean we should be encouraged to make new ones?

Knowledge being power, who knows where you could end up.
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 9:58am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

I'm delighted this looks to be turning into a good discussion. I've started a file of notes for replies, and conservatism is definitely on there. Meanwhile I hope many more people will join us and share their views.
Cowsham wrote: 17 Dec 2022, 9:38am Image
Graham Linehan is also on the agenda. There he is now. (Video not topical, but Alan Partridge is an old favourite, and I couldn't immediately find something else from Father Ted that suited the occasion.)
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 9:31am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

Chesterton's fence:
In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.
by sussex cyclist
17 Dec 2022, 9:21am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

Lots to reply to there @Nearholmer. While I'm limbering up my typing fingers, first I wanted to add this extract from Rowling's essay, linked to above but perhaps easily missed.
If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.
Note that I've also linked to an article by Debbie Hayton, added just before @pwa's reply by the looks of it, as there's no edit line on my post.
by sussex cyclist
16 Dec 2022, 10:51am
Forum: Cycling Goods & Services - Your Reviews
Topic: Spa Cycles (Harrogate)
Replies: 691
Views: 388698

Re: Spa Cycles (Harrogate)

It's only warrantied for 10 years, but I'm hoping for an advanced age.
by sussex cyclist
16 Dec 2022, 10:36am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Re: Gender critical

Let's start with this:

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Apologies if you don't do Twitter (I dabble), but it's appropriate to link to it as that's where much of this battle is taking place.

TAKE 1

TAKE 2

TAKE 3

Half a lifetime ago I worked at Bank Street College of Eduction in NYC, where I didn't mould the minds of children, but did sell their parents books at their dedicated bookshop. With my hair well past my shoulders at the time, I was quite a sight.

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I wasn't Sam then; I legally changed my name a while after moving to the UK (my family and everyone back in Ohio still uses my old name). I kind of like that it's androgynous.

Anyway, Bank Street was my reintroduction to children's books after devouring them as a child. I can't say they did much for me as lunchtime reading material, and can only imagine what it's like for a parent rereading Goodnight Moon at bedtime until they're ready to howl. It was only later that I developed an appreciation of their creation (and creators) and aims.

After I left that job, Harry Potter's mother likely would have mostly flown below my radar. Even moving to the UK didn't make me take much notice of her. The movies don't appeal either. It was only after she started her second act (I'm not referring to her books under her nom de plume) that I developed an interest in what she had to say.

Hers has been a case study in genuine misinformation.

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I'm frankly astonished she continued to put herself through this when she saw which way the wind was blowing. At the end of the day it's not money that counts, but legacy. Has she forever trashed hers, or will herstory end happily ever after?
by sussex cyclist
16 Dec 2022, 10:35am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: Gender critical
Replies: 112
Views: 6982

Gender critical

pwa wrote: 15 Dec 2022, 5:47pm All it takes for something to be undiscussable is for moderators to get scared of what might happen if someone objects to what is being said. From that point on, we can't discuss whatever it is openly.
Gender critical
The stance that it is sex, not gender, that should categorize people as men and women. It denies that trans women are actual women, and trans men are actual men. Gender critical people consider sex to be more important than gender in most contexts, especially when talking about female oppression.

Gender from their POV only consists of sexist stereotypes that should be abolished, not encouraged. According to them, anybody can be as feminine or masculine as they want, no matter what their sex is. It does not change whether they are a man or a woman. They usually don't believe a person can "choose" their pronouns, but that they simply refer to a person's sex.

They are often called TERFs by others, but consider this a slur and inaccurate. TERF implies that their feminism excludes all trans people, which is false - it actually includes trans men.


That's from the Urban Dictionary, who also offer other interpretations. I'm not 100% gender critical, and am not even sure how much I like the label, but it'll do.
by sussex cyclist
16 Dec 2022, 9:53am
Forum: Cycling Goods & Services - Your Reviews
Topic: Spa Cycles (Harrogate)
Replies: 691
Views: 388698

Re: Spa Cycles (Harrogate)

I just bought a new frame from them. Here it is on its way home from the post office with me yesterday:

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I dealt with Bob. He was very helpful, and the package was shipped almost straight away to arrive the next day, my retrieval of it thwarted only by the weather and some bad timing.

Our long driveway (actually a bridleway) currently being impassible, I'd had it shipped to a local post office, not remembering they always close midday, whereas the Parcelforce driver – I hadn't expected things to still be on the move during the strike – would usually arrive after that. Thus for a couple of days it had gone back to the depot, and he'd have driven straight by our house while I was powerless to retrieve it from him. I finally managed to get the address changed to another PO, which would normally be accomplished easily but had some hiccups due to current events.

You can't, of course, truly judge a company until something goes wrong, but at least it's been a good start with Spa for me.
by sussex cyclist
10 Dec 2022, 1:47am
Forum: The Tea Shop
Topic: the undiscussable
Replies: 84
Views: 3997

Re: the undiscussable

My passionate undiscussable is gender ideology.

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It might be safer to alight upon stoats.

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You called?

Spotted in front of my house a number of years ago. We weren't best pleased, as they have a taste for our favourite fauna.

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This is stoatally not on.
ncutler wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 11:21am All topics that are not compulsory are forbidden.
Speaking of quantum mechanics, it was Werner Heisenberg's birthday last week. Here he is shown torturing Herr Schrödinger's cat,

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said cat fortunately being out of shot to spare delicate sensibilities.
by sussex cyclist
10 Dec 2022, 12:27am
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Replace head tube?
Replies: 31
Views: 2864

Re: Replace head tube?

I am sorry it didn't work out, and give them high marks for customer service. We may not have agreed about what should be done, but they were professional and courteous.
531colin wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 6:37pm Thats a result, except that it puts you back to the start of your quest for a new bike. :?
Yes, back to the drawing board for me.

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I'm really bad at drawing.