Cycling UK Forum

reohn2 wrote:

james-o wrote:Jones 'H' bar. Very useful fore-aft position variation. Depending what gear shifter is used, I can cover the brake with my 2 outer fingers from a narrow+fwd position and from the rear in the normal index-finger braking, that's around 4-5" of distance.........

I ride the Space Bugels(pic on page1 of this thread) (Humpert have now dropped(sorry)the word 'Bugel' from the title)in much the same way as Jones loop bars,though the backsweep is 37deg not 45deg as Jones'(keep up(sorry again) ) and find them very good and the loop bit not quite a further forward,though I don't use that position much so it's not much of a loss.
I'd like to try Jones Loops to see there's any improvement,but find the cost @£130+ astronomical compared to the Humpert Space(HS) @ £20 inc P+P,for what to me seems only a small difference.Finger joint problems led me to the greater back sweep of the HS's and with ergo grips solve the problem,after using them for some 8months on and off I don't think I can improve on them.

I did notice those. Very nice indeed. Are they the ones which have the oval crossbeam, or the round crossbeam? Not sure which is which between the two. How have you found them for squeezing through gates as they are quite wide if I recall correctly.

I had a similar shock at the price of Jones bars when I was looking for bars for a project bike. My plan was to attach aero bars onto the crossbeam. I was pleasantly surprised when I later found all the humpert bars. I eventually bought a fleegle pro from planetx for the princely sum of £5 and stuck some ergo grips on so I could get the bike moving despite my indecision. Haven't got round to trying the aero bar plan with them yet so no idea if this will work out.

james-o wrote:

Jones 'H' bar. Very useful fore-aft position variation. Depending what gear shifter is used, I can cover the brake with my 2 outer fingers from a narrow+fwd position and from the rear in the normal index-finger braking, that's around 4-5" of distance.

I have bikes without drops and I can see clear advantages to that set up until I have a headwind and limited time.

Yup .. The only time something like a Jones or trad M-bar is lacking the right position.

I think the H-bar is a great idea. I can see how it could be a good option for some people, but they are extremely wide. So wide that it may get very annoying sometimes. 'Humpert' make quite a few interesting bars which are similar like the 'space' and 'boomerang' bars.I believe spa cycles sells most of them.

Brucey wrote:BTW if you buy the wrong bike to start with, you deny yourself the chance to use certain handlebars very easily.

OP might be a case in point; small Marin MTB frames often have long top tubes and I'm not sure that you can fit a set of drops to one (not in the right place, anyway) without using a very short (or even reversed) /tall stems. Certainly if you just fitted a set of drops into the usual stem they would be miles away from being in a good place, and no, you would 'never use the drops' like that....

The only MTB frames that I've seen dropped bars routinely fitted to have been ones with unusually short (for an MTB) top tubes. Note that Thorn (for example) do different length frame geometries and one of the reasons for this is that you can't easily fit some handlebars to some frames otherwise.

So forget all the groupthink psychobabble (and BTW the crappiness I was referring to was content, not presentation ), I think perhaps you might just be stuck with the wrong frame and are trying to justify that choice in some other way....?

cheers

I think perhaps you may need to take another look at type 2 and 3 symptoms of groupthink.

MartinC wrote:James, here we go again. You're not content with sharing your preference but you also insist on speculating (wrongly) on why other people choose differently whilst refusing to accept their reasons for doing so. Tiresome.

Where exactly were my speculations proven to be wrong?

Let's say I said something like 'I think most tv viewers are male', and someone responds by saying, 'well, I'm female'. That response has done nothing to disprove the original statement. When someone argues that they think something is true in a general case, It will never be a particularly compelling argument to respond to their statement by saying 'well, I personally do this therefore you are wrong'. If your goal is to convince or disprove something I've said, that is not going to work. If your goal is just to tell me you think I'm wrong, that's a whole other story and it's job done .

Most people use alloy rims on their bike. The predominant reasons people actually use them are something like a) that's 'just what you use' b) that's what's available, or c) what is recommended by bike shops. No matter how numerous the advantages of using them over steel rims may be, the exact reasons to use that particular item as opposed to another are largely irrelevant to most people who use them. Cyclists buy them for reasons which are entirely different from the properties which make them superior to other options.

My assertion is that drop bars are no different than this in that most people who use them, just use them because that's what was on their bike when they bought it. An avid cyclist may say, and has said things like 'well I like them, and have 10 good reasons for why using them is a good idea'. This may very well be true, but says nothing about my original assertion.

What puts drop bars in an entirely different category altogether than alloy rims (for me) is that there are just so many awful things about them. They are just one big compromise after another. The most reasonable explanation I have come up with for their extreme prevalence (especially given regionally dependant prevalence) despite all these obvious (to me) flaws is that most people use them not because they are good at doing their job of being a handlebar, but because of tradition, style, bike shop advice, forum advice etc.

I suppose it all depends on what you count as a hand position, and what you just count as more of a 'temporary hand resting perch'.

On a side note, I cycled 90 miles today on my straight bar bike and used roughly 9 different hand positions. One of them in the middle, one was slightly further out, one was steering with my legs, another was no handed riding, one was where I attach a string between my bar ends, and then steer with my teeth. Top tip : the last one simultaneously gives your teeth a good flossing.

Brucey wrote:I've tried most types of handlebars at various times so my choice is a well informed one. I rode about 30 miles today and I used about six or seven hand positions on my drops. I know what is a myth and what is not...

I suspect that many others have had similar experiences.

cheers

7 hand positions!? Sounds like someone has been using the ol' double handlebars approach.

beardy wrote:

Like the multiple hand positions myth - no one ever uses the drops, and most human beings are just absolutely unsuited to holding onto a 100% straight bar for any great length of time. Yet people still continuously state how drop bars give you all these hand positions even though no one really uses any of them apart from the hoods.

Quite incorrect. I for one spend a good deal of time in all three of the main positions offered by drop bars, plus a few I have invented for myself!

Riding on the straight section is very popular with long distance riders, some of us even fit cross top brake levers so we have the brakes to hand while there. A look at an Audax rider's bars will not only show that they have wrapped plenty of extra cushioning in these places but also that it has deep grime there from being used.

Apart from that I still agree that there is some over reaction to your heretical comments about drop bars.

Sorry, my use of 'no-one' was hyperbole. I do not literally mean no-one uses them. Just that from my own observations on the road in the UK and a few places around the world where I've cycled, I see very few cyclists using anything other than the hoods. I am fairly certain that the straight section gets uncomfortable quite quickly for most cyclists especially when touring. It is usable, but quite far from the ideal straight-ish bar design.

Very interesting, I had never thought that this might affect the pedals and saddle.

I used to commute every day with one heavy pannier. I would put it on the right size so that the reflective part of the bag would be more visible for cars. Also because I tended to lock my bike up one way so the bag was more easily accessible that way.

I think it is certainly possible that this could be because of the bag, you do ride slightly slanted with a heavy bag on one side. Could it also be because of your positioning when stopped and starting off? When holding the bike at a traffic light for example, you need to adjust how you start off to counter the weight of the bag. Could this be the cause? Do you notice any difference in tyre wear on one side?

After some time, I was loading so much stuff into the one bag, I just had to give up on this approach and started using two bags. I certainly noticed that I enjoyed the ride more when I began using two roughly equal bags. Perhaps I did less mileage like this as I did not encounter any such problems like those you have experienced. Sounds like it may be something else. May be a silly suggestion, but everyone has one leg longer than the other? Could it be something as simple as this?

MartinC wrote:James, it's perfectly fine not to like drop bars. You don't need to invent lots of psychobabble to justify it. Personally I prefer them to flat bars most of the time but we're all different.

I'm not inventing psychobabble - you just disagree with me and that's fine. I don't need any additional excuses other than the fact that I don't like them, but I do believe that some people who use drop bars are just using them because it is the traditional/conventional choice, or the type of bar which came with their bike. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with pointing this out, or describing my personal reasons for thinking drop bars are awful and funny.

I do also suspect that there is a lot of rationalisation going on. i.e trying drop bars, finding they work okay, and then for some reason overselling how great they are and inventing reasons to use them along with many others. Like the multiple hand positions myth - no one ever uses the drops, and most human beings are just absolutely unsuited to holding onto a 100% straight bar for any great length of time. Yet people still continuously state how drop bars give you all these hand positions even though no one really uses any of them apart from the hoods.

It's the same with many bike things. My opinion is that in a lot of cases it's a combination of tradition and bike marketing doing it's job successfully. This is one of the reasons that Sheldon Brown was so great. He did not take anything at face value, approached each subject with an open mind, and experimented using a scientific approach. He was also careful when following generally accepted bike wisdom because so much of it is often wrong or based on hear-say and invented evidence therefore not necessarily trustworthy.

Brucey wrote:er, isn't that missing a box?

BOX F

High Probablilty of Crappy Flowchart

. Added slightly nicer (to look at) flowchart.

Interesting to see some of the solutions people have come up with to deal with drop bars' numerous fundamental design flaws . In all seriousness though, some very nice setups indeed. Still all seem to have 100% straight bars though, which are not suited for the vast majority of human beings wrists.

I do suspect that drop bars may be an example of groupthink rearing it's head. Thanks Brucey for mentioning that in your earlier post as I'd not read about this before.

I'll just leave this here

greyingbeard wrote:How can anyone advise ? Only her bottom will know. Perhaps you could inspect her closely on some pretext, if you know her well enough

eileithyia wrote:Saddles are far too personal, get a voucher if you are insistent on buying her a saddle

Had a bit of a look at other options, but am going to go with a saddle plus gift receipt. I know she needs/was looking for one. Voucher is definitely a good idea in general for something like this, but it's not a voucher giving relationship. She'd be like 'thanks grandma', as would I if the roles were reversed.

Anyone have experience using any of the brooks ones I mentioned?

eileithyia wrote:Saddles are far too personal, get a voucher if you are insistent on buying her a saddle, but otherwise...... stylish Rapha clothing... they have had a sale on recently....
There are a variety of gift ideas if you visit Totalwomenscycling gift site....
http://totalwomenscycling.com/lifestyle ... vzeEHXi.97

Thanks for the link. Some nice ideas there

Brucey wrote:

ljamesbee wrote:
I know that having a reflector on your bike is the law and am fine with that and enforcing the law (although reflectors are of limited safety value IMO). I am NOT fine with forcing a small business to act as a babysitter for foolish cyclists. What's next? Force every bike sale to include a helmet and high vis jacket?

well, electrical appliances, cars and motorcycles are similarly babysat for similar reasons, and 'the nanny state' suggests that we all drive on the left and stop at red lights, whatever is the World coming to, eh? There'll be rules about guns, knives and high explosives too....? and when you go into a restaurant or a pub, they will be obliged to serve you with food that isn't poisonous? tsk tsk what will they think of next?

cheers

I get the feeling that we have very different world views. I'm in favour of personal freedom coupled with personal responsibility. Regardless of whether or not an individual makes a good or bad choice, it is their mistake to make, provided their mistake does not infringe on the rights of others to pursue their own interests. If you drive on the wrong side of the road or fail to stop at traffic lights, that is quite obviously endangering other motorists and thereby infringing on the rights of other motorists to drive safely on the roads.

In reality, not having a reflector is such an absolutely minuscule risk to other road users, that I do not feel there is sufficient justification to waste time and money forcing small bicycle manufacturers to supply their very specialist bikes with them preinstalled. If a rider wants to take the risk, the possible negative consequences will not affect anyone but themselves. I suppose it will also affect taxpayers as their nhs care has to be paid for, but by extension of this argument, cigarettes, alcohol, and extreme sports would need to be outlawed as well to protect the tax payer.

Mandatory helmet use is very much something which could become reality. Not anywhere close to selling poisonous food on the 'slippery slope' scale or other such unrealistic comparisons.