Search found 15 matches

by vanGoose
12 Jan 2021, 8:45pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

mart430 wrote:OK, thanks JBro

I'll let you know how I get on......

Try my 2 years old book... plenty of pictures and (sorry 'bout that...) even more words.
I was working on a different problem, but stripping it down to the very bones was just too interesting to not try...
THIS is your link to get it. Free to anybody for any use without any warranty. Link valid until 2021-02-12.

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw
by vanGoose
3 Jun 2020, 8:56pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

quote="zeluzel"]
The "second" hub i worked on is now operating for some years i.e. some 8000km and i am basically happy with it. Every once in a while she gets mad at me and slips a pawl. Lets say it does it about once in two weeks.

For me sounds absolutely unacceptable, especially for an equipment that claims to be totally maintenance free and "just-working".[/quote]

Please note: "slipping a pawl" means that it slips over one notch of its sun gear upon shifting. Once in two weeks is not often (i shift up and down all day...) and it does not need any maintenance when that happens. With derailleur shifting you get your chain jumping over teeth much more often. Pawl slipping happens inside the hub, not at the chain, so one would fear something "broke". Nothing breaks. But yes: What the SG-S700 does is not exactly "just working".

Actually, my personal rating of the SG-S700 is: POOR BY DESIGN. (sorry 'bout that...)

But i got two of these units for free, i took the time to look at the inside mechanisms, applied changes, and by now i am happy with it, compared to what i could expect from two units which were somewhat damaged inside before by their original owner and/or by insufficently educated mechanics.

Then, looking back all those >700 posts by more or less unhappy/disappointed owners, it looks like others faced pretty much trouble. We must see that this is not an experimental hub but its promise was to provide trouble-free operation - at least as compared to derailleurs. It did NOT keep this promise.

When i will, one of these days, get to feel joy in opening my hubs again, i will continue to apply changes. One of the weak points of the SG-S700 is that it is extremely sensitive on shifting cable setup. Just ONE click at the barrel adjuster can put you into trouble, and the yellow marks don't tell the truth. I found that the pawls do not extend as far as they could to safely catch their notches. Could be that the up/down shape in the shifting sleeve thing was applied to flat material and they did not consider the change in shape resulting from bending the sleeves to their final rounded form. I will invent some tool to grind in (or to hammer in) the sleeve's grooves further so that the pawls will then come up higher i.e. sit in their notches safer. As a consequence, more tolerance will then also be there against not "ideally" set shifting cable.

We must, however, consider one more thing in the A-11 story: While the first version (SG-S700) is far from perfect, Shimano's redesign (SG-S7000) seems to be much more reliable. So please be sure to not take my "rating" valid for the newer A-11 versions.

All in all my judgement is as follows:

- The A-11 is none of the cheap hubs. Looking at its price, i think the value for money is fairly low.
- On the other hand, i very much enjoy the roller clutches, the pretty well equalized eta across all gears, the comfortable shifting lever.
- Looking at the A-8, the A-11 is a big step forward.
- To get the "best" hub (R-14) one must pay a fortune and must accept unequal eta and noisy operation.

I operate all of these hubs (and even more, e.g. the Sachs S-7) . The A-8 was very robust but gear stepping was too uneven. It now runs on the "Guests" bicycle. The R-14 works 100% trouble-free on our Pino tandem, but i dislike its noise. The A-11 replaced the A-8 on my daily "donkey" and does a good job. Silent operation, evenly stepped gears (except 1->2) and, apart from the known deficiencies, she is one of the things which make my riding enjoyable. Every day. Period.
by vanGoose
15 May 2020, 8:57pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Hi zeluzel,

i always release the documents for one month, so the link is meant to expire...

Never mind, i renewed the link, it will do until 2020-06-15.

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

There are a few things to add, though:

- My article is free for everybody to use, share, whatever - no limits. And it comes without any warranty. You act at your own risk.
- I wrote about the SG-S700, which was replaced by the 7000's since some years. There were significant changes/improvements, so one must expect that my stuff is partially outdated.
- While many of my pictures and "findings" might be of some importance for people wanting to strip down (and put back together...) the hub internals, my original intention seems to be less interesting to most readers.
- I still love my "modding" i.e. changing from "assisted down-shifting" to "preselectable down-shifting. For me it is simply great.

While i am around just now, here are a few updates to my story:

The "second" hub i worked on is now operating for some years i.e. some 8000km and i am basically happy with it. Every once in a while she gets mad at me and slips a pawl. Lets say it does it about once in two weeks.
Once in those two years i had to re-tighten the shifting cable by "two clicks" at the shifting lever adjusting barrel thing. Not any other trouble.
Recently, the pawl for gear 2 stopped to reliably extend. Reason: i never did any maintenance over 8000km. Oil changed, back to normal.
I can confirm that the roller clutch, mainly in the higher gears, slips a bit at maximum pedal force when i have to be faster than that guy in the car approaching... I do, however, rate this little against that nice and silent operation which the rollers provide.

I have one more thing to do. The reason that i had to re-tension the shift cable is a little defect in the shifting lever. That one has a mechanism which lets the lever act, upon shifting down from gear 2, only in the second half of its move i.e you cannot accidently try to shift down "two gears" then, which you could from any higher gear. This mechanism is a very good way to avoid that you pull the cable against the end position and possibly stretch it. Unfortunately, that protection stopped working and i sometimes DO now force the cable beyond "gear 1". That's made it stretch or otherwise change its seat, so i had to re-tension.

I will go and try to find that little nose in the shifting lever assembly which must be the reason for the problem. But if anybody here knows it already then i'd be happy to be told.
by vanGoose
1 Jan 2019, 4:40pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

rofan wrote:
vanGoose wrote:...

My book grew to 52 pages, ...

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

A few notes:

5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.

..

Link has been renewed, valid for 30 days again. THIS is supposed to work:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw (actually same link as before but validity is now extended)

Everybody is free to download and share, as you like.

...


Did anybody download the 52p version ? PM please.
vanGoose cannot be contacted via this forum
tks

I may not be addressable, but actually... i get informed when i am quoted...

Renewed the download link again, nice to know that somebody is still interested.

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

Validity now until 2019-01-31, enjoy!

oh - by the way: i wish everybody a great year 2019!! My "2nd set" A-11 keeps operating almost trouble-free. Every once in a while it gets a little bit mad and slips in gears 2..4. I shift through all upper gears, then it calms down again. Looks like an early sign of increasing friction in the cable so it looses some accuracy which it - up to now - reclaims after a full move.
by vanGoose
27 Sep 2018, 8:39pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Oops... so i've been too harsh it seems.

Yes the premium Inter-8 has roller bearings as same as Alfine, so ETA is similar. But yes, too, the lesser efforts taken on sealing the hub will make it last shorter - or require more maintenance, whatever you prefer.

Using twin chainwheels IS an option. I don't really want to start a religuous discussion, but to me combining a hub with derailleur shifting would not be an option.

I rode derailleurs in the early days. Even on my A-8 i started off with the twin chainwheel arrangement as originally sold by Shimano. HATE IT - really:

- To get "evenly spaced" gears, i permanently have to shift both systems. Takes more time and "thinking". Costs much fun.
- Shifting the chain puts an angle on it which significantly increases wear.
- Shifting the chain hinders me to put an enclosure around it (chain glider, "holland bike" like stuff).

After short time, i replaced the chain wheels with a Schlumpf speed drive (1:1.65 planetary gear in the pedals assy.) and added a Hesling Excelle chain box. LOVE IT.

When i go for an IGH then my main motivation is that i want to reduce sprocket wear, chain wear, chain maintenance and all that goes with it. Sure, putting an enclosure bears the risk to just "forget" the chain which would make things worse. But it also GREATLY reduces wear due to keeping dirt outside. Just a bit of lube once/twice in a year, maybe clean it nevertheless, and that's it.

The only thing i can think about better than a packed chain is a (open) belt drive - which also allows for one chain wheel only.

Aiming to reduce maintenance needed, going for an IGH also means i want THE HUB to be low-maintenance-requiring. I opened, cleaned and re-greased my A-8 just once in those years i rode it. Just 2 years after i bought it brand-new. Shimano put veeeery little grease only and re-lubing it after run-in done is anyway a good idea. After five years (>15000km), i replaced chain, chainwheel, sprocket. That's it - trouble-free operation enjoyed.

With the newer hubs utilizing oil lubrication, maintenance becomes more important. At least once every two years oil needs replacement. I only accept this because, different from greasing, it can be done without dismantling of the internals.

OK, we now have a new discussion starting, do we...?
by vanGoose
27 Sep 2018, 7:19pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

radlr wrote:
vanGoose wrote:Hi, long time no see...

Calling just to say: "Second's Out!".

My book grew to 52 pages, contains more photographs and - maybe - can start further discussions about the "magic" within pawl engagement profiles...

Here is your link for everybody who is curious:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

A few notes:

5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.

Comments welcome - enjoy!


Hi vanGoose, I guess I missed the time to download your book on A11 disection. Would you please make another link?

Thank you very much.

-Radlr


radir, sorry for not being around recently. I preferred to ride rather than write...

Link has been renewed, valid for 30 days again. THIS is supposed to work:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw (actually same link as before but validity is now extended)

Everybody is free to download and share, as you like. PLEASE NOTE:

All my books are about the "old" A-11 i.e. the SG-S700. I never owned or opened the new version SG-S7001 series hubs. Those newer versions seem to have undergone improvements and do no longer torture their owners afaik. Even with the old SG-S700, there were multiple versions out there. I personally own two and they use different axle units. My book shows both and discusses some differences.

I would like to add a few expieriences i recently had:

I got both units for free and played for hours, no weeks, with the internals. The first set i touched and had ready for riding had previously suffered so far that what was left to operate was a "A-10", not a "A-11". Things worsened and in July 2018 i changed to the second unit which is now in operation.

The first unit never worked as should. Gear 10 and (less troubleful though) gear 5 were not ok, i stopped using no.10 because it slipped almost continuously (i.e. at least once every 10 pedal revolutions). The funny thing is, though, that gear 5&10 have exactly the same pawl setting active. Sure, it is a different section of the pawl selector sleeve, but the scheme still is same. I may try and get to the bottom of it next winter. Few weeks later it got messed up in a way that (as i suppose) the non-turn-springs on the left side probably escaped. The unit started ratcheting noises all the time and more gears (most often no.8) started to slip. Until swapping to unit #2, i rode unit #1 for @3000km in total.

Sure, when you encounter such behaviour, it is not a good idea to keep riding, especially when having a second set available. But, lazy as i am, i still did for some weeks. I think that, if i feel like playing again during long cold winter nights, i will re-open unit #1 and look inside. I think that the failures may have to do something with AXIAL play. As we know, item no. 3 in the Shimano exploded view (stop ring LHS) is available in 3 thicknesses so as to compensate for axial play coming from shims (item no. 4&7) wear/tolerances. Too much of axial play enables the spring(s) no. 5&6 to escape, but before that what we may see is tilting of the latched pawls due to axial play of planetary gears/sun wheels. If nobody else is ahead of me with analysing then perhaps this will be what my next book may be about.

The second unit is now operating "trouble-free" since @1000km ride. Once in a while it gets mad at me slipping gear 5 and 10 (yes those two again), but this is really rarely happening only. This unit is a "true A-11". It will hopefully stay like that...

One comment about you people wondering if an old SG-S700 (Alfine-11), a SG-S501 (Alfine-8) or any of the 7000 series is recommendable to try:

Do definitely not touch SG-S700's, no matter how cheap they are. Obviously, the redesign (my unit #2) is more reliable than before, but you will not know which version you get because both were marked same "type". There certainly is some link to serial numbers but i do not know about any details.

The SG-S501 is very reliable eversince, i rode my own for 8 years (>30000km). BUT: The gear stepping is very unequal. If you ever rode a A-11 or even a Rohloff, then you will be annoyed with the unequal stepping of an A-8. The A-11 is a real improvement in that regard. My old A-8 was now moved to the "guests" bicycle (replacing a Spectro-S7), but i do not want to go back myself, now that i enjoyed the A-11.

When you are stuck between SG-S7001-8 (successor of SGS501 Alfine-8) and SG-S7001-11 (latest Alfine-11) then please take a while and think about the benefit of equally spaced gears. In my personal sense it is worth the money. The only "better" hub available is the Rohloff (i ride one on my "tandem" bicycle, a Hase Pino, together with the most wonderful lady on earth) and this hub is really much harder to pay.

Conclusion: Dig deep in your wallet. If you can't afford a Rohloff then go for the 7001-11 - you will love it for many years. If this is still too expensive then go for the Alfine-8, but be aware that you will hate it in the long run even though it is very reliable. The "standard" Nexus-8 is not a good alternative. Its ETA is far below the Alfine's, one can easily notice that. Do you want to spend force on driving or on the hub?? When selecting Shimano IGH, then go for Alfine's. When you can afford it then go for a SG-S7001-11.
by vanGoose
28 May 2018, 7:47pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

jb wrote:I'll warrant the assist mechanism will be used to some extent on every down change; its duration of activation will be mille seconds because as soon as the pawls are engaged the move will be initiated and the spring will take over thus retracting the assist pawls again.

Sorry this is not true. The shift assist return spring needs to be tensioned sufficiently for the shift assist pawls to activate, but it will only be tensioned at all when the pawl of previous gear is "locked" through the driver's force on the pedals. If you like to test: you will feel and hear the difference. "Feel" because you will notice the jump of the gears at your foot. "Hear" because the snap-back of the shift assist pawls carrier plate back to retracted can be heard easily. This is of course even easier when the shift assist pawls themselves have no more chance to produce their own "sound", as is now the case with mine...

jb wrote:If you choose to disable it then fair enough, you know what your doing - and what not to do. But for the general public I'd say it does what it says on the tin.

Right! I am not saying that everybody shall file off pawls. I did it and my personal feel is that it was nice for me. But if someone else finds his mechanism worn like mine was then they'd know now how to put into service again what remained of their hub :wink: .

jb wrote:The ultimate fault with the A11 is that the select mechanism is too compact and whilst it probably works faultlessly for the majority it shows its weaknesses when used for the more arduous tasks.

Yep! I suspect (and will - maybe - analyse further next winter...), however, a part of that weakness to sit with the outer rotating parts, not with the axle unit only. Like this weird US guy would say: Let's wait and see what happens! :mrgreen:
by vanGoose
23 May 2018, 9:39pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

The discussion becomes somewhat theoretical. Reality and expierience are proof enough, i honestly think:

i) There ARE hubs out there which have been damaged in a way that excessive forces upon down-shifting degraded their inner circuit.
ii) We MAY think that the design should have considered what force a human can introduce through pedaling upon doing the shift, but apparently they took assumptions which are a little bit too optimistic.
iii) Some 99% of A-11 users seem not to damage their hubs this way, so the design can be considered fairly ok or the feature is not frequently used.
iv) If one manages to damage the inner circuit this way, however, then - to my today's knowledge - there is no repair possible. (I doubt that replacement of axle unit is guaranteed to repair since it may be uneasy to get the right axle unit hardware revision for a specific hub, or more inner parts might suffer than an axle unit replacement actually covers.)

To me, this is reason enough to disable the shift assist pawls, hopefully BEFORE i damaged anything else...

v) With shift assist pawls disabled, a new risk exists that one can continue to shift down without ever unloading the pedals until shift assist return spring is exhausted and can no longer protect the mechanism. Then serial troubles are unavoidable. But is that very likely to happen?? The benefit, however, (and i rate this benefit higher) is that the continued risk of damage upon EVERY loaded down-shift is now gone.

vi) With shift assist pawls disabled, shifting down behaviour is exactly same as shifting up behaviour:

- If pedals are (almost) unloaded then it shifts.
- If pedals are sufficiently loaded then nothing happens. Shifting will be delayed until pedals are eventually released.
by vanGoose
21 May 2018, 10:07pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

jb wrote:I was under the impression that the shift assist was an integral part of the design. The selector mechanism on its own is not strong enough in certain circumstances to operate the shifter and will result in it being bent.


With the pedals loaded, shifting UP simply wouldn't do, all you get is a loose cable. But no excessive force would be able to enter into the mechanism.
With the pedals loaded, shifting DOWN would still be done by activation of the shift assist pawls, but at the price of unlimited (internal) force acting to rip out previous gear though pedal force tends to keep the currently active pawl latched.
I disabled the shift assist PAWLS only. As a result, the forced rip-out of the previous gear does no longer happen. All i do by shifting down with the pedals loaded now is that i tension the shift assist return spring. When i later release pedals then the shift assist spring will change to the lower gear - that's it.

The original shift assist mechanism IS an integral part of the hub, but not to protect the mechanism from excessive forces. It USES external, even excessive force (from the pedals/driver unit) to do what one would better not do.
My "mod" quits two things: Assisted down-shifting and risk of excessive force inside the mechanism. Shft assist feature becomes a shift preselect feature.

There is one downfall though in my mod: If you would shift down MORE than 2 gears without ever releasing the pedals, then you could wind up the shift assist return spring so much that finally the shifter clutch touches the other edge of the shift assist pawls carrier plate and that would be the time where the spring can no longer protect the cable from being ripped off or the mechanism being bent.
by vanGoose
21 May 2018, 12:24pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Hi, long time no see...

Calling just to say: "Second's Out!".

My book grew to 52 pages, contains more photographs and - maybe - can start further discussions about the "magic" within pawl engagement profiles...

Here is your link for everybody who is curious:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

A few notes:

1. I use Firefox Quantum (V60) browser and set it up to NOT operate in private mode, and to accept cookies. With this setup, the link should work. It will also do on older firefox editions (back to v.48, i think).

2. To protect your privacy, you may want to close your browser after downloading and have it clearing cookies&cache.

3. GMX is supposed to talk to you in your preferred language if your browser transmits that information.

4. Please download the .pdf AND the .zip, the latter contains all the pictures in better quality than what you got embedded into the .pdf.

5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.

Comments welcome - enjoy!
by vanGoose
20 Mar 2018, 7:34pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Just a short (?) update...

i filed 2/3 of the shift assist pawls (forgive me for keeping "my" naming, please...) peaks away, maintaining more or less the previously existing angle, so the outer slope lost material on @3/4 of its length. When retracted, the pawls now appear to face inwards, when fully engaged they protrude not further out than when retracted previously with original shape. The circuit will no longer work and will hopefully not get a chance to furtherly degrade. The hub (my "unit #1") is fully re-assembled, lube'd and adjusted. On better wheather, i will swap wheels and give it a try. My expection is that the "knack"'s will now be gone. Whether anything else runs better than before we'll see - i will report back.

Currently i still run my unit #2, the one which gives little problems only. If unit #1 operates satisfactorily (or let's say at least works somehow at all...) then i can disassemble #2 and clean and re-lube it.

On re-assembling unit #1, i encountered two faults in my document which i will correct in a later revision of it - will keep you updated. For now, here are the two issues in plain text in advance:

1. Installation of the shift spring

When you look at pic23 (page 25) you can see that the shift spring counter bearing is not aligned horizontally and that you can see the "hat" of the gear preselection ring. This is false. The bottom layer / 1st round of the shift spring actually runs above that hat, which is almost impossible to avoid when setting the shift spring's bottom hook in the gear preselection ring's latch. No big thing, but if it stays like this then the shift spring will later be squeezed onto the gear preselection ring and the shift assist return spring will no longer be able to do its job turning it.

With installation of the shift spring, a last step is missing where you, getting in from the top, push the bottom layer of the shift spring out with a screwdriver, to get it placed outside the gear preselection ring's hat. You will then notice that the shift spring counter balance ring can be put a little bit further down and sits in horizontally.

2. Installation of the drive plate

In pic38 on page 30 you can see the "dot mark" facing upwards. This is a "must". If it faces downwards then the index position of the cassette joint pulley would be wrong (turned by @30°). While the pic is ok, the text doesn't emphasize the importance of the dot marks.

There are other little things which i will improve in the text but these are not due to false information so no need to list here.

On adjusting after pre-assembly (i.e. with only the driven side completed), i noticed some things which make me worry if this hub will ever again be doing well.

I found, most important, the reason for my earlier statement of the "safe window" width being 1mm. The reason is that the pawl selector (Brucey: shift sleeve) HAS PLAY AGAINST ITS ACTUATOR. Only some 1/100th mm only, but so close to the axle center, this is quite a bit when referring to absolute movement. Seeing that the assist pawls got damaged i think that the entire unit faced excessive stresses and many more is wrong than just the false triggering of the shift assist mechanism. I can hence expect that i will get different results depending on whether i shifted up or down. If so, then the unit is probably dead, unless i buy a replacement for the axle unit. Though the expectation is not very good, i will still test it, as soon as the weather suits me.

Then, i figured that the pawl selector is VEERY difficult to judge anyway. In a running hub, it is held (and guided) by the sun wheels inner surface. Without sunwheels, it tends to stick out a little bit more from the axle which completely changes the pawl timing. It does not help very much to keep the pawl selector lock ring well in place. Once the hub is in the bike again, i will verify the best setting by slight pulls against the index-positions right with the shift lever. I trust my feel more than an unreliable measurement...

Last, i checked if the pawls come out enough anyway. That is very easy to judge when slipping over the sun wheels. None of them would go over an (engaged) pawl unless i pushed it inside carefully, even at designated pocket position. So i figure that all pawls are moving out sufficiently far.

I did not go ahead and verify pawl and/or sunwheel pockets geometry in full. I had to do the laquer thing with my fiat gearbox hypoid many years ago and i definitely do know that i don't want to do stuff like that again...

That's it for today. I don't want to offend anybody, really, but from what i saw in the recent weeks i really think that the SG-S700 was not properly designed regarding the shift assist mechanism. Shimano should not have promoted this hub as being a replacement for derailleurs, moreover for classic derailleur-like kind of shifting. It can NOT keep that promise. If the new version overcame that problems - fine. But they won't give me (or anyone else) a free upgrade. Also, i can only dump an old unit and buy a complete new set, since they sell axle units (i could use a new one in an otherwise old hub) but not the sun wheels as a spare part. But pawls and sunwheels of different hub revisions don't match. So a self-upgrade is not possible. What a pitty.
by vanGoose
17 Mar 2018, 10:35pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

@mjr: that's the thing about cloud services - you never know what they really do... I use firefox 58.0 on XUbuntu currently, that went ok. The german message says it does not like your browser SETTINGS, not the browser itself. GMX is a german provider who really likes to pop-up ads and the like. Perhaps your privacy settings are a little bit too tough. I have not disabled cookies on my browser. That makes most sites work fine. For security, i set the browser to clear history - including cache and cookies - on closing, and i DO close it frequently 8) . I guess you will just have to experiment, i don't really have a better idea.
by vanGoose
17 Mar 2018, 10:07pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Thanks, Brucey, for your answer. Very impressive how many details you actually know.

I guess it will be a good thing to wait some more discussion and i will finally try and remove most of my faults from the document. Especially regarding the "safe window".

I also understand now that finding the best adjustment with "some" cassette joint and "some" cable does not neccessarily deliver the "best result for every combination" of hub/cassette joint/cable. I assume that if i really check every single gear isolated, then go back to gear 6 and very accurately compare the various resulting "gear 6 yellow marks" which i get for gears 1..11, i might be able to judge if my cassette joint is worn or from a poor production series. I will definitely check that and will replace that thing if there's any doubt that it will suffice. Sure, not everybody will want to disassemble the hub in order to check the CJ, but as i already have the hub in pieces i surely can seize the chance... Regarding inner/outer cable: Mine are original parts and movement is "perfect" in my sense. But yes, i understand that it might be worth looking at these if still there are problems later on.

A thing about pawls: In the hub which is currently disassembled, i noticed that pawl 1 (non-driven side) is, when engaged, not as far up as the other two go. On the other hand, there was no evidence that this is false: The pawl selector "looks" pretty much ok and the pawl moves all the way it allows. Can you confirm that the pawls go differently far up by design? It is quite hard for me to judge how far they actually must go i.e. see possible difference in the latches of the sun wheels. Sure, i can take measurements, but i do not think the accuracy in comparing sun wheel's latch diameters with pawl lifting (which is on one side of the axle only) really tells me everything. Any recommendation (or even numbers) for verification of pawls engagement heights?

Shift assist mechanism in other hubs: Yes it is clear to me that shift assist with (e.g.) A8 works for up-shifting, not down-shifting. Which i find a bit weird because i can not see any need for assisting up-shift. Unly upon down-shifting whilst going uphill with pedals loaded is see a the risk that one HAS TO use assistance.

Unsymmetrical movement of shift assist pawls: I hear what you say, but i would never EXPECT this mechanism to operate in 100% symmetry. If that is so important then i prefer to make the assist pawls "unusable" by filing them sufficiently down. Other points you make about this mechanism make me confident that "all trouble will be gone" once i worked it out.

Last (for today): I was afraid of dis- / re-assembling the axle unit, but i am no longer afraid now. It takes me not more than 10 minutes to do it, and i think i found the "golden rule" for working with it. That's one reason i wanted to share my "book" with others - telling them "do not fear...". Sure, if you get to have a messy unit then any disassembly/reassembly won't improve anything, but thinking back to jb's broken spring clip i personally would prefer to repair it than to replace the axle unit. I have shown people that it is not SOOO difficult to do and it is not a big risk to just go for it.

Thanks - again - for your input, i keep learning much and i very much enjoy that...
by vanGoose
17 Mar 2018, 5:29pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Right - why not go the easy way (i just was wondering if the board provides such tasks internally)... so THIS is your link:

https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw

This shared folder contains the .pdf "book" and the picture collection (zipped). You will have to live with the situation that the site talks German... The share is valid until 2018-04-17. Enjoy - comments welcome. No copyrights - share as you like.
by vanGoose
15 Mar 2018, 9:28pm
Forum: Bikes & Bits – Technical section
Topic: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Replies: 891
Views: 230218

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Hello to everybody. Please excuse my poor English, i am from Germany.

I own two A11 (old version i.e. SG-S700) which are both far from trouble-free. I am not an expert, but i do spend lots of hours on things which don't work as i expect...

Thanks to this forum i got ready to strip down the unit(s) and i think i learned a lot. I would now like to share this with you. I compiled a little report (it accumulated to a 33 page .pdf with lots of pictures) which i would like to feed here. Actually, the board does not let me upload it (.pdf is an invalid extension :-[ ) Perhaps - if somebody is interested, you can guide me on how to still do it? Some online storage which can then be referenced here would also be fine, but i do not personally have any. Attempting to awake your couriosity, here is the "first page" of my "book":

About a possible weakness in the design of Shimano Alfine 11 IGH (SG-S700)

This book is about one possible cause for repeated gears slipping and for knocking
noises inside this hub. Investigation took me to stripping down of the unit, including
axle unit. As i did not find detailed procedures regarding the axle unit, i prepared one
wich i hereby, along with originally intended analysis results, share with everybody
who may be interested. So, this book actually is about many more “secrets” of this
hub, though i must make clear that i am not really an expert. (I did, though, strip
down my 1973 Fiat 600 gearbox incl. Hypoid completely to replace a broken bearing
in the farthest corner of the thing – and got it together, adjusted and working
entirely... some 20 years ago.)
Please excuse my poor English, i am from Germany.
Prost,
vanGoose

Contents
Preface 2
First test runs 2
Strip-down the non-driven side and inspecting hub internals 4
Strip down the driven side – part 1 5
More thoroughly inspecting the hub internals 9
Description of the inner circuit 11
Shifting up an A11 12
Shifting down an A11 13
Assisted down-shifting with an A11 14
Supposed cause of failure of my hub and plan of action to repair 16
Strip down the driven side – part 2 17
Re-building the axle unit from scratch 18
Re-build the remaining parts on the driven side 28
The other unit 33

33 pages - too much to insert here by hand... This is not an ad, it is not meant to be useless, i just hope to share some information with you which may be helpful.

The story is not over yet. Lacking more playing time i have not completed my works by today and i will have to pause it for some weeks. But i simply could not wait to "tell the world".

The .pdf is some 3.5MB in size. Though the pictueres therein are pretty good, i can also deliver the pictures in original resolution in a .zip file sized @9MB.

Your comments welcome.

Best regards
vanGoose