Search found 324 matches

by Fonant
7 Feb 2010, 8:43pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: Experience in other organisations
Replies: 3
Views: 910

Re: Experience in other organisations

According to BBC Countryfile magazine, March 2010 issue, the Ramblers' Association (a charity similar to CTC in history and perhaps image, but twice the size with 125,000 members) has struggled recently due to the recession.

The Chairman of the Ramblers wrote:like many charities, the Ramblers has faced severe financial difficulties during the recession. The trustees and management took painful emergency steps, including scaling down operations across England, Scotland and Wales.


A magazine reader wrote:In my opinion the Ramblers has over-reached itself. It has sought to go beyond its core activities and, encouraged by government, has involved itself in schemes to get unfit urban dwellers walking. This is a laudable aim but such peripheral activities are diluting the effectiveness of the organisation and have, I am sure, contributed to the escalating financial crisis and the unfair fate that is facing the Scottish and Welsh offices.


This suggests to me that being a Charity doesn't guarantee a nice easy source of club funds, and in fact expanding into non-core charitable work can increase financial risk quite dramatically.
by Fonant
5 Feb 2010, 12:11pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: The CTC Charitable Trust
Replies: 20
Views: 2892

Re: The CTC Charitable Trust

Regulator wrote:Whichever way you look at the accounts, large sums of money are being given to the Trust by the Club to prop it up.


The fact that the CTC has given the Trust exactly the right amount each year to balance the Trust's accounts to zero is odd (see the "Financial history" page for the CTC Trust on the Charity Commission website). A "normal" charity would try to generate more income than their expenditure, to build up reserves for more difficult years. But the Trust effectively gets a blank cheque from CTC members however well it performs.

If the Trust is generating income, the CTC could donate just the money-go-round amount for staff, offices, and traditional member benefits and the Trust would still have a surplus at the end of each year. As it is the CTC donates _more_ than it receives back in benefits, and the Trust still only manages to break even.

If this is correct, the membership should vote to distance the Club from the Trust (and perhaps put a cap on the amount we're willing to donate to support the loss-making charity work), rather than merge with it.
by Fonant
4 Feb 2010, 8:06pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

Simon L6 wrote:Once again....


Simon, could you explain what these accounts are, and how you obtained them?

Are they "official" accounts or quickly-drawn-up estimates that may contain errors?

The "re-forecast" figures for the annual donation from Club to Trust in 2008/2009 are different in each account (£872,628 versus £873,562): are these really genuine documents?
by Fonant
4 Feb 2010, 7:44pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: Email from Peter Hayman to "CTC member in Scotland"
Replies: 118
Views: 10553

Re: Email from Peter Hayman to "CTC member in Scotland"

The key arguments which persuaded us to support the proposal are:

q One CTC charitable body would become a united organisation speaking for all cyclists


Which assumes that "the CTC" is currently not speaking as a united organisation. Apparently, as a CTC Right-to-Ride representative, I've been speaking in the name of the Trust since 2005. I don't remember being told this, so I've continued to campaign on behalf of "the CTC". I don't think local authority staff are that bothered about the legal niceties, they just want to know that I'm well informed and knowledgeable on cycling matters.

q Members and the council would regain full direct control of the CTC including all its assets


Which assumes that CTC members lost control of some parts of the CTC when the Trust was formed. :( Which parts of the CTC do members not currently have control over?

q All trustees would be elected by CTC members


The official FAQ page on this says "These Trustees of the CTC Charitable Trust are appointed and removed by CTC Council. At present there are 4 Trustees, all of whom are also Members of CTC Council.", which suggests that all the current trustees are already elected by CTC members, at least indirectly via their elected councillors, so there wouldn't be a change there.

q Tax benefits, including Gift Aid on donations


Yes, this could generate a bit of cash, so long as the membership system can handle the record keeping required. ;)

q Greater public goodwill and trust as a charity


Why would a change in legal status change the level of public goodwill and trust in the CTC?

q Reassurance through the charity regulations protecting members


In what way would members be more protected belonging to a registered charity, compared to the current organisation? Am I at risk of something because I'm a member? :?

I have satisfied myself that contracts won by CTC Charitable Trust have trained and encouraged youngsters and non-cyclists to ride bikes and have substantially added to funds available for traditional CTC member activities.


I have yet to be satisified, as there don't appear to be any financial figures to back this up. Surely the "Yes" campaign must have carefully done the maths, and can tell us exactly how much the Trust has generated for club funds? I'd be very happy to see that the Trust has been a success in generating funds as well as doing good works.

Instead we're stuck with disagreements about the money involved and some top-level Club and Trust accounts shown to the Council that contain many basic errors and inconsistencies. The biggest of which is the size of the donation from Club to Trust in 2008/2009 which appears to be either around £450,000 or £860,000 depending on who you ask. How can there be confusion and disagreement about a sum of money this large? Could the accounts be officially published before the AGM so that we can all see the numbers?

Hopefully we can answer some of these issues before we have to decide between "Yes", "No" and "don't care"...
by Fonant
1 Feb 2010, 12:17pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: Financial issues, Members funds etc.
Replies: 28
Views: 21448

Re: Financial issues, Members funds etc.

Can I ask here about the official CTC page that this topic is linked to?

The page says:

[quote]As the Trust has grown and its contracts and grants make an increasing contribution to overheads, the Club has been able to reduce the amount donated each year.[quote]

And yet the table has these figures for the donations from Club to Trust each year:

2005/06 = £375,000
2006/07 = £606,000 (62% increase)
2007/08 = £758,000 (25% increase versus previous year, 102% increase since 2005/06)
2008/09 = £453,000 (40% decrease versus previous year, 20% increase since 2005/06)

I don't see how this indicates that "the Club has been able to reduce the amount donated each year", although the massive reduction in donation for 2008/09 looks very welcome: did the Trust have a massive increase in profits, or do significantly less work, that year?
by Fonant
1 Feb 2010, 12:06pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

Those account figures are very broken :(

I see a Donation from the Club to the Trust for 2008/2009 of £872,628 which mysteriously changes to become an amount of £873,562 when it arrives at the Trust. How on earth were these numbers calculated?

And both these numbers are very different to the £453,000 quoted on the official CTC pages, with accompanying text saying that the donation from the Club to the Trust is reducing each year. If you replace £453,000 with £873,000 a different conclusion suggests itself to me.

As the Trust has grown and its contracts and grants make an increasing contribution to overheads, the Club has been able to reduce the amount donated each year.


Here are the numbers we have to support this, specified as being the donations from Club to Trust each year:

2005/06 = £375,000
2006/07 = £606,000
2007/08 = £758,000
2008/09 = £453,000 (or perhaps £873,000 depending on whose numbers you believe)

Looking at percentages:

2006/07 = 62% increase in donation
2007/08 = 25% increase in donation
2008/09 = 40% decrease (or 15% increase, depending on which numbers you believe)

Please could the "Yes" camp explain why the donation from CTC to Trust was able to be cut by 40% in 2008/09 having been increasing rapidly in previous years? The Trust must have made additional profits of several hundred thousand pounds - which must have required a very large project (or projects) to achieve. Surely such a huge increase in profits is worth talking about?

Or is Simon correct when he says that actual figure for 2008/09 is more like £873,000? This would appear to follow the trend better: a slowly decreasing rate of increase in donation per year, as the Trust becomes established.
by Fonant
29 Jan 2010, 6:18pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

geocycle wrote:
AndyB wrote:This came in an email from the NW councillors (Welna Bowden and David Robinson) just now:
In the accounts, monies transferred from the club to the trust are for member services provided by the trust.



Where can I find a breakdown of this Trust expenditure, so I can see the money coming back to the club as member services?

The Charity Commission site has a rough breakdown by type of activity, and staff costs are specified in a note (I think they must be included somehow in the activity totals in the main accounts). But the categories are very broad and vague, so I can't see how much the trust spends on member services.

Why does the Trust provide member services to the club, in return for an end-of-year account-balancing donation? Surely it would make more sense for the Club to provide member services, and donate any spare resources to the Trust for charitable work? Why the need for the money merry-go-round?
by Fonant
29 Jan 2010, 6:13pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

geocycle wrote:This pretty fundamental and you would imagine should be a question of fact rather than opinion.


Quite. It's a little worrying that there's so much apparent disagreement over the actual numbers involved. Either one party is knowingly misinterpreting the numbers, or the accounts aren't clear enough to be understood in a consistent manner.

How can we decide who is telling the truth?
by Fonant
29 Jan 2010, 6:02pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.
Replies: 271
Views: 69795

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

glueman wrote:Reading the for and against arguments in the latest Cycle, one sentence in the Yes column by Prof David Cox caught my eye.
"The CTC should not become an exclusive club when it can encourage a new generation of cyclists from all our diverse communities to enjoy our type of cycling and ensure the future is not just on segregated paths or in competition."

An interesting elision of 'facts', or plain old monkey business depending on one's point of view.


I agree with glueman, whether CTC is an inclusive organisation or not seems to me to be quite independent of its legal status. That this is used as an argument for charitable status confuses me: can anyone explain why being a charity automatically makes the club more inclusive than it already is?
by Fonant
16 Jan 2010, 7:29pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.
Replies: 271
Views: 69795

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

John Catt wrote:I take it you have looked at the "How does the Council test whether its ongoing plans and activities are in line with members’ expectations?" http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5362#six


Yes, I have, as I think this is very important. CTC as a charity (competing with Sustrans?) is a different thing to join than CTC as a club, and membership numbers might change significantly when the status changes - either up or down.

I don't see any mention of membership surveys about converting to a charity. I do see that members want CTC to work for all types of cyclist, and that we should be targetting the young, new cyclists and families to join as members, but I don't follow the logic that this means strong support for charitable status. The evidence for membership consultation doesn't seem very strong.
by Fonant
16 Jan 2010, 1:15pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.
Replies: 271
Views: 69795

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

John Catt wrote:
glueman wrote: It really is peculiar that a representative sample of members haven't been involved in drafting these proposals. As a member's club you have to ask, 'why?'


How would these members be selected?


Using the normal survey methods, probably at random as you suggest.

John Catt wrote:If selected at random how would we get them to participate?


The same way we get members to participate in other surveys, such as the one about the website, the regular membership surveys from the past, and the current one about lorries.

In fact past membership surveys are used as arguments in favour of becoming a charity, based on the result that most members think CTC should be "for all cyclists". But you can read that as either being "CTC should work for all cyclists, even non-members" or "CTC should encourage all cyclists to join the club". The former suggests a charitable organisation, the latter doesn't.

John Catt wrote:Isn't the Council elected as the representatives of the members?


Yes, they are, and I hope Councillors are busy asking the membership what they think. Or at least reading this discussion board :)

Council members also seem to have some personal interest in the change, if only to avoid these disadvantages of the current structure:

  • Some risk that the apparent “control” of a charity by a membership organisation contravenes charity law with implications for dual hatted trustee/Councillors.
  • With particular issues difficulties in the issues relating to the management of conflict of interest.
by Fonant
16 Jan 2010, 12:58pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

bikepacker wrote:Why do some people insist on giving links to HQ's ambiguous propaganda?


Because some people don't consider it to be propaganda. One could equally ask why people add links to the opposing propaganda...

I want to see links to all aspects of the discussion, so that I can make my own mind up!
by Fonant
16 Jan 2010, 12:56pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

John Catt wrote:You may disagree but I think this spreads some light on the situation:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5363#three


It doesn't really, as it doesn't say what the Trust is spending its money on.

Also the comment "As the Trust has grown and its contracts and grants make an increasing contribution to overheads, the Club has been able to reduce the amount donated each year." doesn't seem to be supported by the figures presented. Here are the donations from CTC to the Trust since the complete split from the table on the page linked to above:

2005/06 = £375,000
2006/07 = £606,000
2007/08 = £758,000
2008/09 = £453,000

Apart from the last year's donation (which this thread is questioning and which apparently appears as £872,000 somewhere) I see an increasing donation from CTC to the Trust each year.
by Fonant
16 Jan 2010, 12:48pm
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?
Replies: 76
Views: 8368

Re: how much did the Club donate to the Trust in 2008/2009?

The public accounts at the Charity Commission site don't help very much. Expenditure in 2007/2008 is split into:

  • Cycling development - £878,508 (42%)
  • Cycle training - £509,030 (25%)
  • Cycling information & helplines - £136,536 (7%)
  • Campaigning - £190,624 (9%)
  • Services to cycling professionals - £313,053 (15%)
  • Environmental projects - £41,068 (2%)

I don't know what "Cycling development" is, but perhaps items 3, and 4 could be mostly traditional member benefits, adding up to perhaps £327,160, or 43%, of the CTC's donation to the Trust (£758,000 in 2007/2008) coming back to CTC as a club. This reduces the effective donation to the Trust to £431,000 in 2007/2008, but that's still quite a large chunk of membership income.

Elsewhere in the public accounts we are told that the Trust spends £550,285 on 19 full-time staff, who I understand are the National Office people. This expenditure doesn't appear in the Statement of Financial Activites, so I presume they're included in the above figures.
by Fonant
16 Jan 2010, 11:41am
Forum: CTC Charity Debate
Topic: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.
Replies: 271
Views: 69795

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

glueman wrote:What are the drawbacks to becoming a members charity?


According to the Cass advice, the main disadvantages are:

  • Implementation costs and management of transition
  • Need to protect incomes linked to old structures such as legacies.

There may well be others!