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by TheJollyJimLad
2 Nov 2012, 2:31pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: The CTC on segregation
Replies: 83
Views: 17068

Re: The CTC on segregation

Now who's using completely unsupported generalisation :lol:

Your experiences of the Netherlands et al seems to run completely contrary to the experiences of many others, myself included. I did not hear 'grumblings' in the bars and I've only ever seen people getting about their day on infrastructure provided because its there, not because they're forced to. I certainly didn't see any mandatory paths being ignored, usually because it would be silly to do so in the instances where they were provided.

There's seems to be an awful lot of optimistic output from the Dutch through blogs, articles and representation at events for a nation that seemingly despises their infrastructure so much, regardless of what Richard or 'CEGB' thinks.

I think you are probably going way out of your way to find trouble where there is none.
by TheJollyJimLad
2 Nov 2012, 12:49pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: The CTC on segregation
Replies: 83
Views: 17068

Re: The CTC on segregation

Regulator wrote:
Richard Mann wrote:
stewartpratt wrote:I hate this type of lane with a passion.

Image


Sometimes I despair about idiotic comments like this. But then I go for a ride, and see hundreds of people using bike lanes, and I have hope.

If you go and talk to the people who live in places like Oxford or Cambridge (or indeed the hundreds of continental cities where cycle lanes are well-established, including lots of places in the Netherlands), you will find they almost all like them. Of course if someone were to magically provide them with a cycle track instead, they'd also like that. But slagging off cycle lanes puts you in a tiny minority.


What a completely unsupported generalisation...! :roll:


Apart from a few bit like the Guided Busway and the DNA path, the cycling facilities in Cambridge can be described as 'farcilities'.

What makes Cambridge a nicer place than many to cycle in isn't slops of paint on the road or pavement, but the sheer number of cyclists on the road, which forces drivers to modify their behavior.


So you think the 'hundreds of continental cities' 'including lots of places in the Netherlands' is a completely unsupported generalisation do you? :lol:
by TheJollyJimLad
24 May 2012, 3:27pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

TC - You are inferring too much :D .

I was simply making a general point that I can't think of many happy or optimistic film clips regarding cycling in Britain (except 'Cyclists Special'). The Dutch like to show off their achievements.

To answer your points though, In the Netherlands, they have fully segregated routes. For example, they would ensure that the quickest and most convenient way to get from a housing estate to the shops is by bicycle or on foot (which is where MK got it wrong to an extent). This is done through cutting off rat runs and a combination of 30kph streets, cycle lanes, bicycle streets and fully segregated cycle paths, particuarly where rat runs have been closed off to motorised traffic. This done with decent signage and continuity of surface. People here tend to think of segregated tracks everywhere which is patently wrong. They just separate by degrees of traffic flow and volume. There are crap Dutch drivers as well as British ones, they just remove the danger. And most cyclists in the UK are already restricted from the general road network because they regard it as too dangerous and dual carriageways are just plain unpleasant - in fact there's often resentment there from spooked motorists as it is often felt that cyclists shouldn't be there even though they are legally entitled.
by TheJollyJimLad
24 May 2012, 2:21pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Here is a typical film clip that gets wafted under my nose from the Netherlands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb0QjASuuqI

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q-ej1eihoU

Calm people, getting from A to B, no helmet cams as not many people wear them. Even club cyclists using the provision (I was overtaken often on cycle paths in the Netherlands by roadies in all the kit)

When I think of people recording what it is like in Britain, I automatically think of this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fqACT1jNV0

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYJBkLN-nC4

Although, at best, constructive, I know what sort of provision I'd rather have. It leaves me mystified as to what the Dutch have to learn from us.
by TheJollyJimLad
24 May 2012, 1:07pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Ellieb wrote:
the Dutch cycled every bit as much before the big 1980s spend on cycle paths


I'm not sure that is quite true. Dutch cycle use declined steeply in the 70s and then picked up again thereafter. More to the point, the Dutch people seem very happy with their traffic provision and are keen to evangelize their experience. I don't think that is the case here. The point is, the Dutch system does appear to work, whereas a mixture of defeatism & ideology still means that a large percentage of people in this counrty won't cycle because they perceive it is too dangerous.


Quite. And [picking up on a earlier point] Milton Keynes 'fails' because no measures were taken to make it any more difficult to get around by car. Fast dual carriageways and roundabouts created undercrofts and a reduced perception of social safety in many areas. This, allied to the plentiful parking meant that the car was going to win every time. I would even make the argument that cycling levels in MK would be even lower without the cycle lanes.

As far as contrasts between the Dutch and British cycling experiences are concerned, I think YouTube is an interesting (but certainly not definitive) portal. The Dutch clips are generally happy, optimistic affairs, whereas the British clips are generally from the defensive helmet cam 'he nearly hit me...' variety courtesy of Martin Porter QC, Magnatom, 'Silly Cyclists' etc. Maybe there's an opening for 'Clapham High Street: The Movie'
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 10:00pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Simon L6 wrote:
TheJollyJimLad wrote:So, despite the fact (according to the Dutch Cycling Embassy writing in The Times) that the Netherlands has 1.1 cycle deaths per 100m kilometres cycled, whereas the UK has three times as many: 3.6 fatalities per 100m kilometres cycled. Despite the fact that these far fewer cycling fatalities occur in spite of a far higher number of total kilometres cycled, and despite the fact that two thirds of fatalities occur in the Netherlands are over 65s because far more of them cycle over there than here, you are still picking about it? Now that's worrying.
I worry that anybody takes the CEGB seriously. I went direct to the DfT for my figures - I rang them up and got an answer. Where the CEGBeebies got theirs from I've no idea. As for the rest...supposition piled on supposition. But,don't let me stop you - you can write to your MP, to your Councillor, to whoever - just don't expect me to do anything but write the same kind of letter putting the case for bus lanes and cycling superhighways.

My MP used to be Keith Hill - he retired at the last election. He once said to me 'Simon, I wrote orders for tens of millions of pounds worth of cycle lanes. I'm not sure they did a bit of good'.


Actually, I was referring to the Dutch Cycling Embassy who would have got their figures via the Dutch Government. They are made up of transport professionals as well as campaigners. What you're writing seems to be some sort of petty personal vendetta, built on misrepresentation.
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 5:07pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Simon L6 wrote:But - there's a larger question, and one that Hemborw doesn't get. It's about public space. Public space is just that - it should be there for as many people as want to use it - and the way to make more space available to more people is not to slice it up. Cycle lanes are the privatisation of public space - Thatcherism in tarmac. Not only do I think they're a waste of money, not only do I think that they are completely impractical in a nineteenth century town, not only do I think that they will beggar streets, I don't want them on principle


Actually, it's shared space that's Thatcherism in action. The libertarian deregulation of rules and regulations creating the survival of the fittest (as the visually impaired will testify). How old do you think Dutch towns are?
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 5:02pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Regulator wrote:
Edwards wrote:
Simon L6 wrote:We seem to manage fine without


I hate partial quotes but this is the specific bit I do not understand. The Dutch have less deaths so how can we be doing fine?


They don't have less deaths (death is death and there's no gradation) - they have fewer.

What Simon is trying to point out that with the Dutch infrastructure that some are so keen to extol (i.e. the Go Dutch and CEGB acolytes) you would expect the 'deaths per billion km cycled' rate in the Netherlands to be substantially lower than it is. The fact that the rates in the UK and the Netherlands are broadly the same belies the suggestion that some are keen to peddle that increased infrastructure reduced the risks to cyclists.

And when you start to look at where the KSIs happen in the Netherlands, some worrying infrastructure related trends appear to emerge...

Oh - and the figures used by CTC in their 'Safety in Numbers' campaign are hashed together and don't necessarily support he conclusions drawn.


So, despite the fact (according to the Dutch Cycling Embassy writing in The Times) that the Netherlands has 1.1 cycle deaths per 100m kilometres cycled, whereas the UK has three times as many: 3.6 fatalities per 100m kilometres cycled. Despite the fact that these far fewer cycling fatalities occur in spite of a far higher number of total kilometres cycled, and despite the fact that two thirds of fatalities occur in the Netherlands are over 65s because far more of them cycle over there than here, you are still picking about it? Now that's worrying.
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 3:54pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Simon

Funnily enough, according to a report I once read, they tried the same thing in Copenhagen. A lot of money was thrown at their equivalent on LCN+ which failed because, as stated before, it's not where people want to be. In some cases social safety is reduced too. When I lived in London, I tended to use LCN+ on the way home from work as a gentle detour to see a bit more of London (maybe finding a pub I hadn't noticed) but never in the mornings when I wanted something more direct.

People I speak to would happily see cycle lanes and use them. Unfortunately, every time they get implemented here, you can always see the where cold wind of compromise blew when they are unveiled.

However, what's there to say that the increased numbers you're seeing isn't due to the blue paint implemented on Clapham High Street and so on? Most people outside London don't have the luxury of riding with 'hundreds' (and I am still sceptical about the utopia you picture).

And you still haven't properly answered the questions.
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 3:19pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

You haven't really answered the questions and there's no need to be patronising. [I assume] Mr Edwards and I do look around us and obviously see a diferent one to yours which can only appear slanted, particuarly to those outside London. And if you think bicycles are going to take over London from the modal share it currently has (particularly in the outlying suburbs), I can only assume that absinthe forms part of your 'sitting back' routine.
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 2:53pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

Simon

More people in the Netherlands over the age of 65 cycle than in the UK. Far, far more and don't try to deny it.

Clapham High Street is an accidental success because it is a desire line. As stated before, it is the A3, just north of where another desire line (A24) hits it. People are cycling in spite of the conditions, not because of them. Parallel routes have limited success the same wherever they are implemented because that is telling people where engineers think they should be as opposed to where they actually want to go.

There is room to have a perfectly decent network of cycle routes in London as in any other town or city in the UK. You appear to be deliberately misrepresenting facts, statistics, images et al for some reason, and it isn't helping.

Good luck in maintaining London's reputation as a city fit for the quick and the brave.
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 12:45pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

You seem to be a little selective with the statistics reported. No mention for example that two thirds of cycling deaths in the Netherlands are of people aged 65 and over - i.e. people who don't cycle at all in the UK (or incredibly rarely), or that their deaths are the result of their fragility due to age more than anything else, which David Hembrow mentioned in a blog post here:

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... ng-in.html

You are also being selective to justify the "not enough room" argument. Picking an example of something which is wide in the Netherlands, perhaps in a new suburb, the countryside or an industrial area, and say that this can't possible be done in a place which is more compact elsewhere. Many residential suburbs have no separate tracks at all but they have continuity of travel for bicycles so they become segregated routes through a combination of permeability, contraflow etc and simply making it a swine [but not impossible] to get from A to B by car. Clapham High Street (which is actually the A3) has high numbers of cyclists in the peak but squeezed into a very uncomfortable experience, despite being a 'Superhighway'. I have never found crossing that road to be a pleasant experience.

As far as Dutch suburban main roads are concerned, they separate by degrees of traffic speed and volume so many carry tracks. I didn't see this as a problem when I was there and neither did the many local residents of all ages, shapes and sizes that were using them (and not dressed for battle, I might hasten to add).
by TheJollyJimLad
23 May 2012, 11:10am
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...
Replies: 78
Views: 17247

Re: Hear it from Penning. The Dutch have nothing on us...

I'm also scratching my head Mr Edwards :D

The YouTube video shows a number of places in a number of cities (Utrecht, 's-Hertogenbosch, even Rotterdam) but the road people seem to be getting so exited about (in a negative way) is the one with the separated bus lane and light rail line. That is indeed THE main entrance to Utrecht from the biggest motorway. A through road in the truest sense of the word. Not a single end destination in sight!

It is basically a traffic corridor and in this respect is far more comparable to the North Circular (which has dire cycle provision and is effectively a barrier to cycling in North West London) than Clapham High Street. At least the Dutch can provide so that everyone has a chance of getting to the places where people want to be.

Also, I must be reading about a different Clapham High Street to the one I knew (http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news ... collision/). Maybe a utopian version lacking only a bit of dry ice. I remember cars nearly running into the back of each other at the pelican crossing outside Sainsbury's when they installed a massive advertising screen in the front window.
by TheJollyJimLad
2 Feb 2011, 1:13pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Helmet cams, was BBC Morning TV
Replies: 169
Views: 9476

Re: Helmet cams, was BBC Morning TV

Kwackers

Commuting 24 miles a day as I do, I know all too well WHY :D

I understand what you are saying and don't disagree. I just think it's really sad (by that I mean I don't think you're sad, I think the whole situation is very sad). We are after all just trying to ride a bike from A to B. That is all.
by TheJollyJimLad
2 Feb 2011, 12:41pm
Forum: Campaigning & Public Policy
Topic: Helmet cams, was BBC Morning TV
Replies: 169
Views: 9476

Re: Helmet cams, was BBC Morning TV

I'm not against the use of helmet cameras in any way but reading through some of the comments here - Kwackers in particular using two cameras, I do find myself wondering how did we get here?

I find it incredibly sad that it has come to a point that for something as simple as riding a bicycle to work or the shops, people are not only feeling the need to fortify themselves with a helmet but now with added surveillance for protection.

If adults feel the need to do this, then what hope is there for kids wanting to cycle to school?

Moreover, people that were thinking of taking up cycling will see a camera as yet another thing to add to the shopping list and will put them off further as the act of riding a bicycle seems increasingly divorced from an everyday activity, or they can look at the wealth of video footage that's springing up on YouTube.

Like I say, I'm not against them at all (not least in the case of Martin Porter QC) but I just want to acknowledge that it is incredibly sad that we have come to this. You wouldn't see a touring cyclist wearing a helmet or cameras in a Paterson drawing! But then again you woudn't see someone speeding whilst chucking litter out of the window whilst on a phone either :(