Cycling UK Forum

Interesting piece

Normally when there is a article about air pollution the BBC find the need to 'balance' the views of the air quality campaigner with a quote from the road lobby - Edmund King of the AA for example, or Mike Hawes from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. "diesel engines have never been cleaner" etc etc

The usual 'balance' was completely absent here. It would have been nice to have another academic such as Prof Frank Kelly of Kings College respond to the claim that the problem of roadside air pollution is being overplayed - especially the bit where it is suggested that getting rid of all cars would make little overall difference.

ChrisF wrote:Another way to even out the fluctuations from solar & wind in the future could be liquefied air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_energy_storage - doesn't need a mountain, or batteries using rare minerals which need replacing every few years

Yet another way would be to use excess power to produce hydrogen through electrolysis which could then be used in fuel cells, IC engines or thermal plants to generate electricity during times of no wind/sun

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2014/07/hydrogen-energy-storage-a-new-solution-to-the-renewable-energy-intermittency-problem.html

Of course the Dutch also have the problem of how to stop their citizens getting doored

Their solution seems pretty reasonable with the emphasis very much on the car drivers/passengers:

http://99percentinvisible.org/article/dutch-reach-clever-workaround-keep-cyclists-getting-doored/

Can't believe people are blaming the victim just because he was there. On a motoring forum you would expect it, but here?
Ok so the bloke may possibly have been going a little fast but filtering on the left is quite legal and in many cases the rational choice. As others have pointed out filtering on the right has risks too, and if you're not going to filter in a congested, polluted city you would be better to walk - it would probably be quicker and healthier!

The only time I was doored was on the right - caught the edge of the door with my knuckles - plenty of blood and mess for me and no damage whatsoever to the car.

Tip - fit metal bar ends and angle them forwards. Then if some imbecile flings their door open into your path, you can at least inflict a few £££ of bodywork damage (probably a bigger financial penalty than the courts would apply), the bar ends will also provide excellent hand protection.

I don't really know the difference between Pacer and a Thames Turbo but 'infinite deferral....of electrification' sound very bad indeed...

I suppose electrification of branch lines is considered very low priority...

edit: actually I think some of the trains are 'sprinters'

Landsurfers post sounded to me like a plea for electrification ASAP.

The DMUs used on branch lines in Devon an an absolute disgrace. An archaic diesel engine under the floor of each coach blasting out fumes into the semi-enclosed environment of the stations -yuk.

As well as the exhaust fumes and the noise, these relics actually have their crankcase vapours vented directly to atmosphere! I know this because First Great Western were quite happy to confirm it when asked

That means as well as the noise, and the exhaust fumes finding their way inside the train, passengers also have to suffer the sweet perfume of hot oil vapour mixed with partially combusted diesel fuel seeping up through the carriage floor whenever the train is stationary. Mmmm thanks FGW I can tell you really care!

Classic conflict of interest IMO: corperate profit vs public health

I'd love to know what Swiss, German and Dutch tourists think when they come here and experience our 3rd world rail facilities

I honestly don't know...

I honestly find that extremely hard to believe

...which toxic pollutants are you worried about?

The one I listed earlier in the thread:

.... the NOx issue....which may or may not get mitigated by SCR tech (how effective/reliable will it be in use once it has been scaled down to fit in a car?....Will it still work properly after a few years?).....

Then we have the issue of the diesel particulate filter. We've all seen the regular rooster tails of filth coming from modern diesels. In fact these devices have proved so troublesome in use that an unknown but high number of owners have resorted to having the filter removed. There are over 200 businesses openly advertising this 'service' right now. How many are on the road with no filter? Nobody knows...

Then we have the issue of the complex long chain hydrocarbons emitted by oil burners (aka the acrid stench) many of which are highly carcinogenic. Just about every diesel car, in my real world experience, stinks. If they are emitting a hydrocarbon stink - that basically tells you that for whatever reason, in the real world, the oxidation catalyst fitted to modern diesels is woefully ineffective. (I have my own theory why this is....)
BTW IMO this will be the next big piece of **** to hit the diesel emissions fan...

Benzine from filling stations? I agree. Why aren't vapour recovery hoods fitted to the pumps? It would hardly be the biggest engineering challenge to solve. (apparently this is planned for 2018 - shocking it took so long).

lots to agree with in your post but this:

As an engineer I recognise that all combustion processes have major drawbacks, especially those using carbon based fuels, and that there are an awful lot of people around these days, and they all seem to want to travel unsustainably large distances with monotonous regularity. I'd suggest that the solutions (or at least mitigation) is in the hands of the politicians.

....seems to be dodging the question

To put it another way...do you think toxic pollution would be off the scale in many EU capitals today if we hadn't encouraged the uptake of diesels?

Why the ?


As an engineer don't you recognise that it was a very, very poor decision indeed to allow such lax standards for diesels then proceed to actively encourage their uptake?

Oh dear, more evidence of conceit and deceit, not to mention an utter disregard for public health...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-sues-germany-and-britain-over-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-a7462936.html

661-Pete wrote:Let me put it this way.
If ...

something as ordinary as a 1/2 mile walk across town can leave a person feeling quite ill, let alone the longer term effects.

then you probably ought to go and see a doctor.

So a couple lungfulls of diesel exhaust often leave me with a headache and a dry nose and throat. Probably not something a busy GP would want to hear about. What is the remedy going to be? Stay away from pollution?

What it really come down to for me is this:

In the 21st century in one of the world's richest countries why the **@@%%*** should we tolerate vehicles so (i was going to say filthy ) noxious that they actually leave a stench in the air as they pass. Why?

Unless we are going to play down the problem, the debate seems to whether to actually do anything proactive to fix the problem and if so do we want results in the shortest possible time or are we prepared to wait. Is it fair to wait?

Incidentally, things were a lot worse back in the days of leaded petrol. That was a hidden, cumulative menace, thankfully now done away with.

Well we can agree on that one. The invention of the 3-way catalyst (that is why tetra-ethyl lead was banned - it destroys catalytic converters) was a massive step in dealing with air pollution. Then we had the bright idea of encouraging the uptake of diesels -which for many years, had no pollution controls WHATSOEVER!. Look where we are now....

landsurfer wrote:10 T0 15 year old cars are not old rattlers.
2001 -2006 cars, that have had regular servicing are perfectly good vehicles. The investment in resources to produce them and modern engine systems keep these vehicles running well ....
IF ... they are serviced correctly, and there lays the issues .....

They are not 'perfectly good vehicles' if they are producing unacceptable amounts of pollutants, degrading quality of life and causing a public health nightmare.

If you honestly believe that routine servicing (oil and filter changes) are enough to keep a modern diesel running cleanly, then I really don't know what to say.

What does your nose tell you when you are out walking and cycling? Huge numbers of badly maintained vehicles?

Unless that acrid stench which ruins the joy of cycling is simply down to a lack of servicing. Begs the question why all these MOTs keep getting issued....

And I would ask the purveyor of the oft-repeated "filthy" - where do you live? What town are you referring to? Have you ever visited anywhere in South or South East Asia? Because, quite frankly, I disbelieve you.

A market town in the west country. It doesn't matter especially which one, they all seem to similarly blighted with air pollution AFAICT.

Does the fact that many 3rd world countries have it much worse somehow delegitimise my concerns?

Seeing as you seem to play down the seriousness of the issue, maybe you can recommend a UK town which is free from the malodorous stench of diesel exhaust?

I honestly believe that Jules 11 year old Audi diesel has a lower carbon footprint than a new car .... ;
New car = x,
Jules Audi = new car x milage x usage + age =<x
A new car will never catch up with a well maintained older car.
So to reduce the actual planetary carbon index we should keep well maintained vehicles in use as long as possible .. ???
Scrapage ..... ??

This isn't really about carbon footprint, its more about how local air quality has become so bad that something as ordinary as a 1/2 mile walk across town can leave a person feeling quite ill, let alone the longer term effects. Diesels are largely to blame for this.

Most 10-15 year old diesels I notice are eyewateringly filthy therefore if we are going to have any hope at all of cleaning up our filthy air they simply have to go ASAP. We definitely shouldn't tolerate a situation where the cheapest possible form of motoring is a stinky old diesel

Is keeping these old rattlers running really going to help prevent climate change?

We need to be promoting active travel right? Difficult to promote it as the healthy choice when the air is so filthy...