Cycling UK Forum

PH wrote: ↑25 May 2024, 12:09pm What I took away from it was that if someone wants a frame to take modern components, particularly disc brakes, then a good proportion of the advantage of having it custom made are lost. Even if someone went down that route, a builder who's reputation is based on skinny tubed lightweight bikes is unlikely to be first choice. I thought that when I first saw Mercian's disc braked High Peak, there's a lot of competition for that sort of bike, even in steel, and at all price points, from the Spa bikes that make Mercian's look expensive to the Mason or Enigma bikes that make Mercian's look a bargain. It's just not the sort of bike I would have considered going to Mercian (or Ellis Briggs) for.

I think you make a good point. we went through a simlar thing back in the 1960s when young racing cyclists didn't want an Ellis Briggs, they wanted an Italian frame.
John Rayner had the bright idea of making another set of decals and Favori Cycles was born. Essentially the same bikes but with a different brand identity.
When a company is known for a particular thing, its difficult to deviate too far from that. Not impossible but difficult as you don't want to sell out the heritage and yet you need to adapt to survive. No business is entitled to exist even if it is well loved.

AndyK wrote: ↑24 May 2024, 1:04pm

gloomyandy wrote: ↑24 May 2024, 12:01pm An interesting take on the situation from Ellis Briggs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nBc8CoduJg

He says that building a frame to work with a modern groupset (with thru axles disc brakes etc.) can take up to twice as long as needed for a more traditional build. I get the impression from some of his comments that perhaps part of this is that there are currently no suitable lugs and perhaps other tooling to make this sort of build as easy.

It is interesting,. but he's a little naïve in thinking that similar operations in other industries don't face the same challenges. It can hardly be easy building modern mass-produced vehicle components into a vintage-looking car. An obvious example is Morgan Motors, whose Super 3 contains a modern Ford Fiesta engine (necessitating some major design changes from the previous model) and who recently made their "biggest ever investment in R&D" with a view to creating an electric model.

Didn't say it was easy, but at least Morgan can hide it all under the bodywork! In the bicycle industry the components available are mostly made for mass market carbon bikes. But I was mainly making the point that if lugged framebuilders want to survive, perhaps we need to invest in new lugs to protect our supply lines and make manufacture of frames to take modern components easier. Unfortunately we can't dictate the direction of the big players we can only control our own manufacture.

This might sound strange coming from another framebuilder but I'm very sad to see Mercians demise as there was decades of passed down experience which is in danger of being lost forever.

I think some missalignment is acceptable on factory made bikes, and a cargo bike designed to have an offset wheel is an extreme case and probably a compromise.

I read a study on wheelchairs where they tested wheel misalignment and they concluded that as you increase toe in or toe out of the wheel the rolling resistance increases exponentially. And just 1 deg of toe in or out produced a 25% increase in rolling resistance. I would say that was quite significant, especially at the speeds of average cyclist where aerodynamics has less of an impact

I really can't understand the excuses made for poor alignment, its perfectly achievable on a handmade frame with care and attention.

slowster wrote: ↑25 Jan 2024, 11:33pm

gibbo1982 wrote: ↑25 Jan 2024, 10:15pm Also on the subject of Brodie's alignment process it is flawed, which is why he gets confused flipping the frame on the alignment table.

I would be interested to learn how it is flawed - could you provide an explanation?

Certainly.

In his demonstration of using a surface plate he attempts to use the centre plane of the frame but he has no accurate way of finding it which introduces error instead. This same error is transferred to the rear dropout spacing, so the dropouts end up offset. So when he flips it over, even though you can see the main tubes are still parallel to the table, there is a gap and the rear spacing is also in error. He then concludes its his table!

I have to admit that the table he use looks quite weedy but its easy check whether it is flat. The whole point of it is to give you a defined reference point. That way, if you follow the right procedure and you know your table is flat then the error is in the frame.

I use the surface table to check the main tubes are parallel to the table, and most importantly that there is no twist in the frame. Then the rear end is tracked using the frame as a reference so the wheel is on the centre plane of the frame with no tilt. Often frames are built with the chainstays or seatstays slightly too long throwing this out. Obviously in the old days when horizontal dropouts were used, there was some adjustment on the chainstays and it left the seatsays needing to be perfect (vertical ends can be filed to adjust the seatstay length but then the chainstays need to be spot on). Now its very difficult to achieve because thru axles have no leeway whatsoever.

The process is similar with the forks

In the end the aim is for the wheels to track perfectly. If you watch my video you can see that's the case.

I can't take any credit for the process, I didn't design it. It was designed nearly 90 years ago when we first started building frames, and we've used it ever since. Those guys knew what they were doing.

rogerzilla wrote: ↑26 Jan 2024, 7:15am

fastpedaller wrote: ↑25 Jan 2024, 5:36pm Absolutely - Aside from the cost, unbrazing parts and re-doing them for a fraction of a mm is likely to cause more damage than it's worth

Ellis Briggs have form for unnecessary work. They like to change the brake bridge to reduce rear spacing, I believe. Everyone else just bends the rear triangle and tweaks the dropouts.

Andrew Puodziunas my predecessor had a word for those who cut corners, he called them cowboys.

Anyway you are incorrect, we've never done unnecessary work. But if you open the rear end for 120 to 130 for example, without fitting a new bridge, the seat stays bow and it looks like an amateur has done it. You can usually go from 126 to 130 without a bridge.

EB

slowster wrote: ↑25 Jan 2024, 4:38pm

southcraven wrote: ↑25 Jan 2024, 10:32am I spoke ellis briggs this morning and they said it is most likely the length of the chainstays being unequal and they would have to unbraze the longer side and shorten the chainstay slightly and then braze it back in.

I would have thought it more likely that the frame was simply out of alignment. The videos below show the frame builder Paul Brodie checking and correcting alignment.

This one shows just the rear end alignment process, from 28.00 mins in:



This one is more general:

Also on the subject of Brodie's alignment process it is flawed, which is why he gets confused flipping the frame on the alignment table.

EB

Also I should have added that I expect Bob Jackson frame quality to improve a lot now Woodrup are going to be building them, as I know they have always taken more care, like ourselves.

EB

Since my name is getting mentioned so much, here is my 2p worth!

Southcraven got in contact with me today regarding this. I explained that the wheel would need checking for alignment and dish before anything else, then frame and fork would need checking for alignment to ascertain what the alignment issue is, if indeed any at all.

Shortening a chainstay would be a last resort.

Some people have pointed out that filing the dropout is a way of correcting alignment. But what you have to remember is that there are many variables in the alignment process and what you alter in one place affects other areas. Also filing the dropout on vertical end will only affect the tilt of the wheel in the vertical. I wouldn't advise opening the width of the dropout with a file to try and influence its position between the chainstays.

I don't know where the comment about doing it as a gesture of goodwill came from? I've never even seen this bike/frame and I certainly had no part in building it originally!

Those who think you can re-dish the wheel and somehow bring the frame into track?

And as for Orbit intentionally building frames out of alignment to decrease the amount of dish on the wheel! Wow. That just screams a BS excuse for not getting it right in the first place. Orbit were notoriously badly built! Sometimes we would blast one for painting and the downtube was cut too short for the lug and there would be a tiny gap between the lug and the tube which had just been hidden by paint!

Also I would point out that Bob Jackson, like many frame builders who built there frames in a day or so, had a very crude alignment system. So a little bit of mis-alignment is common. To be honest even the tolerances on mass produced carbon bikes leave a lot to be desired. I'm not really looking to correct built in alignment problems on other builders frames, they are what they are.

On another note, Chris Juden's knicker elastic method is good indicator, because tracking literally is about the wheels being inline. But you can't go jumping to any conclusion without measuring every variable to see where the issue lies.

Ellis Briggs

Thanks Third Crank.

Your links which you post certainly haven't gone unnoticed. So thanks for that.

Regards
Paul

The only reason Ellis Briggs is now in smaller premises is because the shop no longer sells bikes except for handmade Ellis Briggs bikes and frames.

For many years the shop concentrated on selling entry level to mid range bikes and family cycling. Which in the 80s, 90s and early 00's was very successful. But the lack of inflation in the bike business made it impossible to continue with that and still make money. We also didn't want to get into the high end market which has too much competition and is in fact struggling at the moment.

So the decision was taken to concentrate on the side of the business which Ellis Briggs is famous for. Namely handmade steel frames and bicycles and frame repairs and alterations. We also sell components and accesseries which suit steel frames and we will repair and service any quality bikes.

We've been too busy so far this year to update the history section of our website but it now has the latest part of the story.

Yes it is a shame that the Briggs family is no longer involved in the business but I'm sure you'll agree that they have earned their retirement now.

Paul Gibson
Ellis Briggs

Sorry to hear about your experience John.

I'm not sure what happened there as John is not usually the person who would deal with frame orders, was he the only person serving in the shop at the time?

Regards
Paul

York Commuter wrote:I'll gve a thumbs up for Bob Jackson, but be aware that since they have closed their retail business they are not open on Saturdays. Another Leeds option is Ellis Briggs (rumour had it that there frame jobs were actually done by Jackson's any way)

Ellis Briggs still carry out all their own framebuilding on the premises, in their shop in shipley. Another rumour started by people adding 2 + 2 together and getting it completely wrong.

Regards
Paul

JohnW wrote:The last frame that I had built was to replace an Ellis-Briggs that I'd destroyed in a prang. I tried Ellis-Briggs first, but I felt that they just weren't interested - I felt that I was being a nuisance. There was also a rumour - I don't know whether it is true or not - that they no longer build their own frames.

These rumours start because people add 2 + 2 together and get 9. Ellis Briggs shut down their enamelling plant in 1993 but the framebuilding was and still is carried out on the shop premises. Those are the facts.

Regards
Paul

JohnW wrote:Ah - I'm glad to hear that Paul I really don't like to hear of the loss of any local framebuilder - Can I quote you when the teashop discussion goes along those lines? Thanks for putting me right.

At one time, Ellis Briggs did the enamelling for at least one other framebuilder - or so I understood at the time.

Feel free to qoute me.

Ellis Briggs did enamelling for quite a few, including Woodrup and Bob Jackson, but thats all water under the bridge now ...

Just to clear up any confusion, I can assure you Ellis Briggs frames are definitely made at the shop on Otley Road as they always have been since 1965 in the current shop and 1936 when they were previously across the road. The current framebuilder has worked for them since 1975. Enamelling is now outsourced to Bob Jackson. They were forced to move the enamelling out of the shop in the early 90's due to health and safety reasons. A lot of the industrial work that they relied on dried up and they had to close it in 1996. Since then they've used Jacksons.

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experiance John W.

Paul