Cycling UK Forum

cyclingthelakes wrote:Can't help but add in some resources in case Busaste was not aware, the Classic Rendezvous discussion email forum, http://search.bikelist.org/?SearchString=viscount&pg=1 , not that easy to sift through, honestly, I think the discussion here is better but something still for everybody.

Also, Viscount catalog here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/strongligh ... 577/detail I think most of us have seen these.

The Viscount is whippy but highly manoeuvrable and agile, I rode it in the maze of a storage area the other day and could make all the corners with no sweat, I still had to get out my trusty Motobecane 'steel is real' bike out, there's also something nice about a bike that absorbs for a change of pace and is very sturdy.

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If Busaste sees this or anyone else, here is an interesting historical post:

"Archive-URL: http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?F ... 6.0155.eml
From: "Norris Lockley" <norris(AT)norrislockley.wanadoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:53:56 +0100
Subject: [CR]Viscount frames and cycles

A great deal had been written about the cast aluminium fork that appears
to have caused so much grief to the riders of the early Lambert
bikes,and although I have been in the cycle industry actively in the UK
for nearly 40 years after having taken a short break away from it in the
60s, I was never aware of the problems with the fork.
When I started retailing again in the 70s the Viscount range was very
well known and respected, with the top-of-the range "Aerospace" model
being very popular in that tier of sales below the genuine hand-built
frames.The bronze-welded frames were known to be very light, and as I
recall, bore a decal testifying to the nature of the tubing. The company
even supported a team of Pro riders for a while.

In England at that time it was assumed that all lightwieghrt frames were
built from one of the range of Reynolds 531 tube sets..although I
remember that the 531SL version was launched in the mid-70s and Raliegh
were using the 753 tubes sets.
Accles and Pollock's "Kromo" had ceased to be produced, but frames were
coming in from France built from Durifort, Vitus, Jex, and from Italy
using Columbus and one or two less known brands.

No one in the trade seemed to know what non-lightweight tubing was
being used, apart from TI's "Tru-Wel". Apparently many reasonable
quality frames, ie good quality sports frames were using Mazzucato tubes
from Italy.

Viscount however in their search for "home-grown" materials and products
sourced their "Aerospace" tubing from a company called Phoenix, a
manufacturer based in Wednesbury not far from Birmingham. Not much is
known about Phoenix tubing except that it was thought to be a plain
gauge seamed , rather than a double-butted drawn and seamless tubing.
Additionally it was a Chrome-Moly rather than a Chrome-Manganese. It
might have been used by other builders but I cannot remember any
references to it.

It did however surface again some years after the Viscount Company
finally closed its doors, and was used by Falcon Cycles as the three
main tubes in the companies top-of-the-range frame of that time. I can't
remember the model, but in the UK it was finished
in a flam. burgundy with some chrome somewhere in the rear triangle. The
front forks were sourced from Tange, the lugs were long point Prugnat
with windows. The frame when built into a bike used the Campag Gran
Sport groupset. Maybe it was exported to the States. I recall seeing the
new model in the office of Billie Holmes, the former ace time-triallist
and roadman, who was at that time - early 80s - the Sales Manager for
Falcon. Billy claimed that there was a weight-saving in the main
triangle of 4 ozs when compared with 531DB.. and of course it was much
cheaper.

The tubing also found its way into the workshops of a number of
lightweight frame-builders who rather unscrupulously substituted the
tubing for reynolds 531 DB, but the frame decals never told the truth,
Slightly later on Falcon suffered a very bad fire in its paint plant,
the reult of which is that several thousand "fire-damaged" frames were
sold off as salvage, only to enter the retail supply chain carrying all
manner of makers' names.. including some well-known ones.

So if you have a frame answering this description.. look closely at the
rear drop-outs and if they are Shimano's long road version of the
well-known Campagnolo ones.. start wondering.

Norris Lockley...Settle, Uk

--------------

So Falcon cycles used that same sort of tubing (Aerospace) at a later date?

Hi

Thanks for that. I have read this information before and it is all very true.

Phoenix Tube Co. Ltd. made steel tubing mostly for aerospace applications e.g. parts of the struts on Boeing 747s, fuselages on stunt aircraft. Originally it was used by Lambert for their frames. This was for - allegedly - three main reasons:

a) Raleigh would not allow them to use Reynolds as they were really worried about this new 'upstart' Lambert company who were claiming that they would soon be making 50,000 bikes per year.
b) Great price.
c) Performance.

So what of this mythical Phoenix tubing? It came in two grades, '101' and '1027'. When Lambert went bust in 1974 (an amazing story in itself by the way...) Viscount was born out of the ashes of this mess. Viscount's 'Aerospace' frames were made to the same specification, in the same factory and on the same jigs as Lambert's lugless frames. The grade of tubing used was also Phoenix '1027'. In other words Viscount frames were basically the same as Lamberts albeit built to more rigorous standards. If it aint broke, etc...
It is only my opinion but, and this is backed up by other frame builders I have spoken to, that the Phoenix tube was amazing! Viscount greatly increased their quality control compared to Lambert and amongst other things, conducted a number of tests on the Phoenix tube. Allegedly, despite being markedly thinner walled, the Phoenix tube in these tests out performed Reynolds 531 double butted (that statement is bound to enrage the purists but there you go!). At the time Viscount backed this claim up with a report - which was available to any one - of the testing carried out by an independent company. I am desperate to see that report by the way so I can add it to my very nerdy Viscount database/records.
The official spec of Phoenix '1027' tubing was as follows:
Cold drawn seamless chrome molybdenum alloy steel
Exceeds the performance required from the following aircraft specification:
American Aircraft Specification MIL-T-6736A
British Aircraft Specification NR 3T50
Minimum physical properties:
Yield stress tons/square inch = 45 tons
Tensile strength tons/square inch = 50 tons
Elongation percentages on 2 inch gauge length = 12.5%
The Viscount Aerospace frames were also subject to a variety of 'to destruction' tests required by American consumer regulations. In addition other unique to Viscount brutal frame/tube tests were also added. One of my favourites was where 12000lbs in weight was hung off one of the frame tubes to measure deflection/lugless joint strength.
I have quite a few Aerospace frames, one of which has done over 60,000 miles. All of them are fine even after 30+ years of (ab?)use. Also, I am, ahem, not the lightest of people either so carrying my carcas is a tough test for any frame! It is very impressive how such thin walled steel can survive such a battering for so long. What is not widely known is that the Aerospace frames were used extensively by the Coventry Olympic Viscount team in the 1970s. The team won many championships on these frames including those in the grueling sport of Cyclocross.
Cyclists can be a surprisingly set in their ways lot when it comes to their bicycles (a bit rich coming from me?). I think this partly explained why their was always a degree of resistance to Phoenix tube. I mean, how could a noticeably thinner tube be so much stronger than Reynolds 531 DB? Still, aside from Viscount, quite a few frame builders used it in the 1970's for their frames. Their is more of it around than you may think! There are also quite a few Lambert frames running around speedway circuits even to this day. Some of the racers are not even aware of this...
It saddens me a bit that the engineers who created Phoenix 1027 and 101 cycle tubing have never got the recognition they deserved.
Hope this is all food for thought!
Steve

VonB wrote:Hi guy's, I've just picked up this Viscount today but I'm not completely sure what model it is, as you can see it says 'sport' on the top tube and 'handmade in England' on the downtube.Equipment wise is got Huret gears rather than Shimano but it does have some rather nice Weinmann brake levers.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51486307@N02/

If anyone can provide any more details on this particular model I'd most appreciate it. The chap I bought it off bought it in 1982, cycled across France on it and since then it's been hanging up in his garage!

Stuart VonB.

Hi Stuart
Your Viscount is not listed in my 1981 or 1982 Viscount catalogues so it must be a 1980 'Sport'. The bike's seems to be in almost completely original specification too which is nice. The frame on your model was not made from the fabled 'Aerospace' or other 'posh' tubing such as Reynolds, Columbus, etc. The Sport model frame was either made at Viscount's Potters Bar factory or obtained from a Taiwanese builder. By the way, don't knock those early Taiwanese frame builders - they were good. Regardless of country of origin the Sport frames were made from good old tough but heavy seemed carbon steel. Lug work was nice too if not top draw. I have a mid 70's Viscount Sebring which has a 70's Taiwanese frame - it has survived an awful lot of mileage and neglect.
Back in the 70's the Sport was the lowest spec. entry level model of the legendary 'Aerospace' bike range. However once we got into the 80's Viscount shunted the Sport lower down its range in terms of spec and price. Still a very good bike though and one that Viscount sold for a silly low price.
So, in my opinion, polish, love and ride your Sport!!!!!! Contrary to what you may have seen on the 'net, Viscount did not make duff bikes.
The attached picture is of a very original 1978 Viscount Aerospace Sport (one of the last of this model!) for comparison with yours. Frame is lugless Phoenix ('Aerospace') tubing joined together with low temperature fillet brazing. Gears are Shimano 600, hubs - Shimano large flange alloy quick release, alloy wheel rims, chainset SR Royal, brakes - Shimano Tourney, Birmalux alloy seat post, Union 'ratrap' pedals, Birmalux alloy bars, Shimano brake levers and brake quick release fittings, Shimano 14 - 28 five speed freewheel. Price in 1978 was around £100 with a bit of haggling. AMAZING value for money for a bike weighing 25lbs and loaded with great Shimano/SR components.
Steve

thispartisreqired wrote:Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I have just become a Viscount owner and am in dire need of some info.
I have an old frame but it is minus a few parts like a seat post, the press fit bottom bracket and headset. It also has the original death fork!
Would any of you know the seat post size?
And does the headset take normal inch threaded bearings and races?
Frame numbers? what years correspond to what etc.
Any information would be greatly appreciated and once again sorry for the resurrection
Sam

Hi Sam
Glad to see this thread, which I started, is still being used!
The seat post size on 'Aerospace' frames is 26.8mm although you can get a 27mm one to go in okay. Early Aerospace bikes (pre '78) used the Lambert micro adjust seat post or a basic non adjustable one made by Birmalux (on the cheaper models e.g. 'GP', 'Sport'). Post '78 Aerospace bikes used really nice forged 27mm SR seat posts: e.g. 'Laprade'. All posts were alloy NOT steel.
The headset is a 1" one. Tange make some pretty good 1" chromed Campy style headsets. Try their 'Passage' or 'Levin' models. In looks they are quite similar to the original Viscount headsets. By the way, Viscount made some of their own headsets at the Bilston factory for quite a while.
Be careful of course to get the headset stack height correct!
Cannot help with frame numbers. I have asked numerous former Viscount employees about the numbering system but no-one seems to know what the numbers represented. Due to my Viscount 'nerdiness' I can ID the age of a Viscount from the components, frame, etc. If that is what you need to know, please send me some pictures.
Regarding the BB please see my earlier post. There are plenty of options to choose from.
Now, the 'death fork'. The Viscount ally fork was the 'third generation' model of the design and, contrary to the urban legend, is actually very robust. Shock horror...I have said this on the net! Yes, there were limited numbers of fork failures but NOTHING like the numbers necessary to create the reputation. The Coventry Olympic Viscount team raced extensively on death forks in the 1970's. This racing included plenty of cyclocross too. Having spoken to the former team manager there were no breakages. I know of some death forks that have covered over 60,000 miles without problems. I have 2 death forks and they are absolutely solid. I know of one owner who had his forks x-rayed. No damage was found.
In my time I have seen broken frames made from, for example, Reynolds 531 tubes. There was no crash damage to explain the breakages. The tubes appeared to break for no obvious reason. Ditto for other frame materials such as titanium (Van Nichols). We don't like it of course but frame/fork breakages/recalls are a reality of cycling. Still, could be worse, the frames could be made from carbon fibre...
The original Lambert fork was suspect however. Check yours to make sure it is not one of theirs (I can ID one from a photograph). Having said that though, there are plenty of Lamberts in the USA with their death forks still in use after nearly 40 years!!!!!
Hope all this helps.
Steve

cyclingthelakes wrote:Busaste: I have a question for you, I'm not getting this bike and it looks indeed attractive on ebay but the seller said he took it to an LBS, bike shop and they said it did not have it's structural integrity damaged and a picture of the damaged seat stay is at ebay item # 230401111720 if I can say that, don't know if you Ukayers would get that because it's on the American ebay, Evermore saddle too, I'd never heard of that brand but anyway, I'd sure be hesitant to ride a Viscount with that damage. Otherwise, it's a good looking bike. I wonder if a welder can fix things like that not that. I'm not really in the market for one since I have one but I thought it was a bit interesting.

Thanks!

Hi, Busaste here!
The ding on the frame is not a problem structurally. It is basically a cosmetic thing and would be relatively easy to fill and then repaint.
I am sure I have seen this Viscount on 'Craigslist' before. It is a really nice one. If I lived in the USA I would buy it! It would cost £100 to ship to England.
The saddle is an original fitment leather one made by Middlemores. Middlemores who commenced production in 1796 were based in Coventry, England.
By the way Viscount sold over 30,000 'Aerospace' bikes in the USA back in the 1970's so there are still a fair few around.

cyclingthelakes wrote:

Borrowing from Classic Rendezvous, http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Britis ... _DBs_2.htm the above is a picture of the brake hoods. I think "gum hoods" would probably solve the problem but before dissassembling it, I wonder if anyone else has some tips?? I only have it on the right front brake lever which of course, is used a lot more than the rear or maybe even the rest of the bicycle. I only have slight crackling reminiscent of above.

I once heard someone say repair a saddle with some poly bottle something or other. I wonder if that might work, a plastic in the bottle. I also may check out the hobby store.

Those hoods are the OEM fitment. Some Aerospace Pro's also came with a similar looking hood which had a 'V' on the top where you rested your hands. I have some of these. Send me a PM if you would like a picture. I have found that once the cracks are there there is nothing you can do to get rid of them. Better to take them off (to preserve them!) and fit some other makes - Weinmann of the same period can be made to fit with the judicious use of a sharp knife.

Those Lambert badged leavers were made in England by 'GB'. They were used on Aerospace Viscounts right up till 1977 when the supply (purchased with the rest of the bankrupt stock from Lambert) finally ran out. It was Weinmann levers after that with the brown gum hoods.

I started this thread and am absolutely loving all the posts. Please keep it up!!!!!

I have original Viscount frame transfers for sale. See attached photo. These are VERY RARE. Once gone that's it!!
They are £8.00 each. PM me if interested.
Thanks.

Thought I would post a picture of my finished (at last) restored Aerospace Pro. It was in a right state but now it's done I am well chuffed. Another Viscount saved from the great scrap heap in the sky!

stoat wrote:Bit of an update...
So I checked the BB again, took off the circlips and managed to prise the BB shells out.
The spindle has a crack in it

I took it down my lbs and was advised that the BB shell would be too small to accept any modern BB if it was threaded, I don't know if this is the case or not?

rmw - Would you mind telling me how much argos charged for the work and do you remember which BB you put in once it had been reamed by argos?

I'm wondering whether I can fit a threadless BB so am currently searching for one small enough to deal with the clearance issues the protruding downtube causes...!

Viscount's BB is a pain. I should know as I have quite a few of them. There are fortunately a number of options:

a) Use a Phil Wood SS mega quality spindle (from memory he does one around 119mm spindle long, 17mm diameter). He does JIS and ISO tapers. What taper you choose depends on the crank you have or want to get. The Viscount crank will go on a JIS taper but it is not easy to get it square (see below). Probably better to stick with ISO taper if you have a Viscount crank to reuse.

Check this Viscount/Phil Wood conversion: http://bikecult.com/works/parts/bbViscount.html

b) Have a look at this particularly the bit that says: "Cooks also make a press-in version for older Fat Chance or Klein frames, in fact Cooks is the only one to make a good aftermarket replacement for these" The weblink is: http://www.bikepro.com/products/bottom_ ... cooks.html

c) Here is another option: http://www.bikepro.com/products/bottom_ ... white.html

d) AND another option: http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 151c003226

e) Also, old Klein spindles are still out there. I use one on an Aerospace Pro. It is 123mm long, 17mm diameter and has a JIS taper. A nice quality part. Good for at least 100,000 miles!

This is the Loctite to use: http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Strength- ... B000FN0UPW

f) get the BB shell edges chamfered to accept one of these (note there are a variety of spindle lengths to choose from). I use this on one of my Viscounts, It is an excellent fix.

g) Get the BB shell tapped out for Italian thread and then fit a suitable Campy, etc BB - a common Viscount BB fix 'back in the day'.

Viscount actually made 4 different bottom bracket spindles for the Aerospace frames! The most commonly used spindle had an ISO taper and was recognisable by having 3 grooves machined in it (2 on one side). This spindle accepted Viscount cranks (TA copy, made in England by Birmalux) and very early Shimano, Sugino, SR Apex ones too, although getting the last three to sit square on the spindle is harder than building a space shuttle. Whilst drunk. Also, as I know to my cost getting the original Viscount cranks to sit square on a JIS taper is very difficult. I managed it by fully tightening up the crank/chainrings as normal, locating where it was not sat square and hitting it hard from the back of the chainrings to literally force it back into position, square on the crank. It took me an hour but it eventually sat just nice.

Hope this helps!

quiksilver wrote:This is my converted Viscount, I retained as many of the original parts as poss but cables, bartape, seatpost etc needed replacing, as did the wheelset.

Looks COOOOOOOL in a way that new fixies can't. MUCH cheaper too!!

quiksilver wrote:This is mine before conversion.

Hi
Thanks for the photo.
Dead easy to ID this one. I should know, I had one!! It is a UK 1978 Viscount Sebring or - but it is extremely unlikely - a re imported 1976 US only Viscount Sebring. The frames were lugged and made in Taiwan. Bottom bracket shell was threaded for conventional cup and cone bearings. Not a bad frame really but it is worth bearing in mind that it was not made from "Aerospace", Reynolds or Columbus type tubing. Considering the parts Viscount Sebring's came with e.g. Shimano 600, Tourney, SR, etc. it was amazing value at £85 in 1978.
The Viscount "Aerospace" bikes - Pro, GP, Victor, Sport, Grand Tour, GPM - were the ones with the posher fillet brazed frames made of aerospace spec. chromoly steel tubing. The first year of Viscount's production, 1974 saw just 3 models for sale: Aerospace Pro either with tubs or clinchers and an Aerospace GP.
It may sound hard to believe with all the factually incorrect stuff circulated on the internet but the Aeropscae Pro was a hugely successful road and cyclocross race bike. In the US for instance Mick Ives and other team mates really showed the home grown racers the backs of their tyres in 1976. Even more amazing was the fact that most of the race wins were on completely stock 'Pro's plucked off the shop floor. Viscount wanted to build a £100 race bike that actually won races. They did. Lots. It must have been a real worry for the bigger British manufacturers seeing their race division bikes which cost as much as five times more being wiped out by £100 Campy free local bike shop sourced bikes!!! Heady days.

quiksilver wrote:I have an early Viscount, think its a 71 or 72 model. Its been converted to fixed gear, rides quite nice but I did have a few issues with it. Particulaly the BB and chainline. I think it must have been updated at some point in its life as it doesn't have the pressed bearing BB or the Deathfork.

Hope the stuff below is useful.
Born out of the ashes of the failed company Lambert, Viscount commenced production in 1974. In the UK it was not until 1976 that Viscount first produced a bike, the "Aerospace Victor" with a part lugged but mainly fillet brazed frame. In the US 1976 saw the introduction of the "Sebring" model which had a fully lugged frame albeit one that was made in Taiwan. All Viscounts before these two had the "Aerospace" frame so named because of the special steel tubing it was constructed from which was the same as that used for aircraft fuselages. These Aerospace frames were built on the same jigs as the Lambert ones using the same tubing. They are easy to recognize because the tubes are joined with a fillet braze (no lugs) and the bottom bracket shell has no threads. The crank was bolted to a steel spindle which turned in two sealed bearings. These pressed in bearings were held captive by circlips which sat in machined grooves on the bottom bracket spindle. Incidentally, this simple engineering solution was used by Klein on many of their earlier frames. The only difference was that Klein used Loctite rather than circlips!!
If your frame has a threaded bottom bracket shell then it is either a post 1977 Viscount jobbie, made at the Potters Bar factory or a 1976 onwards re imported Taiwanese frame off a US Sebring! Between 1974 and 1977 Viscounts were made at the former Lambert factory in Bilston. For me, these "Aerospace" Viscounts are the ones to have. The frames show some real brazing craftsmanship (if you don't believe me have a go at low temperature fillet brazing!) and the rest of the bike had some nice examples of innovative engineering carried over - but, crucially, in a way that worked - from Lambert's engineers.
As for the "death fork", where do we start? Viscount Aerospace bikes were fitted with a fork that was similar to the Lambert fork but crucially it was redesigned and as a consequence held together in a much stronger way than its predecessor. Breakages were VERY rare. This is not what you will have read elsewhere but it is true. The companies own fork recall statistics show that less than 1% of all forks sold actually broke. And that's from a total sale of over 30,000 bikes: a large enough number to be statistically significant. I have 3 "death forks" one of which has done 60,000 miles and been raced in cyclocross championships. They have all been crashed big time yet all are in one very solid piece. The internet is notorious for developing myths or at the very least feeding and nurturing minor and quite common problems into a global phenomenon. Its funny really. A global "death fork" recall for Cervelo seems to have gone by with barely a whimper.
Don't know about you but I have seen plenty of broken 531 frame tubes in my time yet there has never been a recall on that stuff. Quite right too. The reality of metals (and carbon too!) is that sometimes s*** happens. Check out the scary websites full of images of broken Campy, Shimano, Mavic, Cervelo, etc. stuff if you are not convinced.
Look forwards to seeing your photo soon. Here is one of my Viscounts, a 1977 Aerospace Pro:

Another bump.
Former Viscount owners, company employees, brochure owners, fans, etc please come forwards!
Ta.

It was not me who stripped it. Honest!!!
I tried with my extractor tool but no chance, the thread is too mashed up. I would rather not hammer it off from the back as it is a 33 year old rare Viscount crank. Is there such a thing as an extractor tool for cranks where the thread has been stripped? Any other methods?
Thanks!

Bumping

GrahamG wrote:I remember chatting to my LBS mechanic about them after bringing a frame I got given for free. "Every bloody crook in the business was involved with that company at some point or other" was the response!

Any more details on the "crooks" side of things? Sounds interesting.