Cycling UK Forum

axel_knutt wrote: ↑9 Jan 2023, 11:03pm My house is a 1947 3 bed semi, uninsulated except for 4" of loft insulation. It's cavity wall downstairs, and solid wall upstairs, with single glazing.
Ins.png
The cheapest and quickest payback option is another 4" of loft insulation, but it's also the smallest saving, and for that I'll lose my floor unless I pay extra for another one, and also lose headroom. Not worth it.

The next cheapest and quickest paying is cavity insulation, which saves about 3 times as much as more loft insulation, but that won't be happening under any circumstances as long as CIGA hang on to their well-earned repuataion for being a load of shysters who don't honour the guarantee.

The biggest saving is the solid wall, but external insulation is also by far the most expensive, with a long payback. It also looks terrible, and has to be chipped away any time the windows need renewing.

Windows have an even worse payback period for less saving, and worst of all is the floor, with worst level of upheaval as well.

There is another alternative, that might work for you; internal insulation

You can buy insulated plasterboards with a range of thicknesses, or you could build a stud wall on the inside of you walls and use insulation batts of whatever thickness you wanted.

The big drawback of this is that you will lose some of your internal room area, although as the house was built in 1947 I would expect your room sizes to be generous compared to modern houses.

Back in 1997, when I was planning to ditch gas, I crunched the figures at length. I calculated that using electric storage heaters for all of my heating would only work if the house was really well insulated (otherwise it would be cold by 21:00). I took the plunge and, singlehandedly, built a stud wall and insulated it on the inside of the longest external wall of the lounge (the only room I heat). I then fastened plasterboard onto the outside and plastered it. My plastering was ****, but otherwise it has been a great success. I did lose 150mm off the width of the lounge, but it hasn't impaired its use as it was 4.22M wide to start with.

I can't remember the cost, but I know it wasn't a lot back then

mjr wrote: ↑9 Jan 2023, 12:14pm

853 wrote: ↑17 Dec 2022, 1:21pm One cold snap in 1997 I recorded the temp and took gas and elec readings one night and heated the lounge to 20 degrees using the gas fire.

Gas fire? That might be only one step up from piping car exhaust fumes into the house!
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/01/ ... dy-reveals

Why do occasional wood burner exhausts out the chimney get all the abuse, while routine gas exhausts into the living space for heating and cooking go uncommented?

It was January 1997, I had the gas supply removed within six months!

I've got one of these at the moment, and I know what it is.

Had a puncture in November when a thorn punctured the innertube on the side, really close to the seam. I patched it and all was well. Then it went down overnight. I pumped it up again and it was fine for three weeks, and then it went down again.

The problem in my case is that the patch hasn't sealed all the way around. This means that it can act like a slightly open valve in certain cases, but most of the time it is airtight. As most people know, the innertube does move around slightly inside the tyre through cornering, braking and bumps (and acceleration on the rear tyre).

In 40+ years this is the third time I've had a patch on an innertube do this. Apart from one valve exploding during inflation, I have not had a single problem from a Presta valve.

At the moment I'm just pumping up the tyre before I go out, as my rides are short at this time of year. When the roads are in a better state(?) I'll switch the innertube

And this is why people might not want to give their name

viewtopic.php?t=154378

axel_knutt wrote: ↑1 Jan 2023, 3:30pm

simonineaston wrote: ↑1 Jan 2023, 1:49pm Back when I had a roof, I remember reading advice from the gov. not to bother with adding insulation deeper than about 270mm. Never really understood the physics behind the advice, but just assumed that since it came from the gov. it was therefore totally sound - hahahaha

Because it's a law of diminishing returns.

Imagine you have 50mm of insulation, and for the sake of round numbers, it's losing 800W of heat. If you double it you'll halve your heat loss(*), so that's 400W saved for the cost of adding another 50mm. But now the same applies again: double it to halve the loss, so it'll cost 100mm to save 200W, next step it's 200mm to save 100W, and in just four more steps you'd be adding ten foot of insulation to save a whole six watts. With each successive step the cost doubles and the benefit halves.

The place to add insulation is where the benefit outweighs the cost.

* In practice, you have to double the total insulation, including that of the fabric of the building, not just the 50mm.

Yes it is diminishing returns, but it is worth doing and since 2006 the building regulations have stipulated a minimum of 270mm.

For people wanting to save money, 270mm is seen as the starting point and 400mm is recommended

https://probuildermag.co.uk/features/wh ... of%20400mm.

The reason it's recommended is because it's the easiest, and cheapest, way to improve the insulation of your house, and if you stay in the house for at least two UK winters you'll get the money back

I've no interest in virtue signalling, but here's what I said last month in the 'Heat in the home' thread. And I don't have a car

853 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022, 7:01pm I took an electric reading on the 19th of November, before I turned the storage heater on for the winter.

I subsequently found an old reading I'd taken on the 25th of November 2012, so almost exactly 10 years ago. I don't have gas, or a wood burner, so all heating is electric. During the period I have used 25197 units, so an average of 2520 units a year.

I only heat 1 room, the lounge, and I am very fortunate that the main bedroom and bathroom are directly above it, and as the house was built in the mid 1980s there is no insulation in the floors so the bedroom and bathroom are very lightly heated.

I aim to keep the lounge at around 17 degrees C, and I'm fairly successful in doing so

My house is a three bed semi, built in 1986, and situated in the North Midlands. It has 75mm of cavity insulation (that it was built with) and no floor insulation. The double glazing is from 1997, although some units were replaced in 2007. I am looking at replacing the patio doors, which I think will drop my consumption to below 2500 units a year

It was built with a pitiful 50mm of loft insulation, which I have upgraded to 400mm. If anyone is serious about reducing their energy consumption I would recommend that they have a look in their loft, (if that is possible). If you can upgrade to 400mm then it is worthwhile, and you will get your money back within 2-3 winters.

I've only had one high speed wobble, back in 1983 when I was 17, coming over the Bwlch Oerddrws on the A470 heading towards Dolgellau. I had no speed measuring equipment but from later experience, when I did, I would estimate I was doing about 50mph when the wobble occurred.

At the time I put it down to my wheels, which were **** (you can put your own word in). Whilst I'd learnt to true the wheels in one plane, I'd ended up with oval wheels which when you spun them went up and down when viewed against the brake blocks.

In reading all of this thread, and the links supplied, I'm no longer sure that the wheels were the cause (as I've said this has been my only high speed wobble). The frame was a 23.5 inch 531 one, which was too big for me and rather flexible. I was also carrying a loaded rucksac, as I was going over to stay at my girlfriend's caravan on the coast for a few days, so my total weight was higher than normal and the weight distribution was not optimal to say the least.

After this incident I changed my descending technique. As a lightweight rider I was always badly buffeted by air resistance at high speed, so I started riding fast descents in a low crouch with my cranks in horizontal positions, and the inside of both my thighs clamped against the top tube. I also did this when encountering a fast moving lorry coming the other way. I rode the frame for another 10 years, several with the **** wheels, and never had an incident again - or with any subsequent frame or bike either.

All the articles I've read have said that placing your leg against the top tube will stop a high speed wobble. My recommendation would be to press one, or possibly two, of your legs against the top tube when in circumstances similar to the one you mentioned (60kph and meeting an approaching lorry I seem to recall).

al_yrpal wrote: ↑17 Dec 2022, 5:58pm Lots of folk wear leisure clothing indoors, some wear it all the time. Its up to us what we wear. If someone chooses to wear summer clothing indoors and whack the heating up thats up to them. I put the details of what I discovered on here as an act of kindness for some people who might be glad of it because like many they are struggling with heating costs.

If you dont like it PS....tough. you are totally free to advise everyone to do what you do. Everyone is free to choose.

Al

No, with the price of energy at its current levels millions of people are not free to choose

Cugel wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 10:04pm
I envy your low costs .... but not your storage heaters. Every such device I've ever come across (and its many, from my years renting places until I was 34 years old) was completely useless at making the place warm, or lukewarm or even a couple of degrees warmer than bluddy freezin'. The worst was a farmhouse in the lower reaches of The Trough of Bowland. The farmer spent a whack on 5 such storage heaters and another wack each day (despite the cheaper rate overnight) filling them up ... but they still leaked all the heat out the stone walls by 9 o' clock in the morning.

Cugel, snug & warm.

As always, there's a lot of truth in what you say and storage heaters really split opinion amongst people. I have to say I was really against them until I did a lot of research and fitted them.

My mid 1980s-built house wasn't built with central heating. It had a gas fire and electric wall heaters in all rooms apart from the downstairs WC. The cost of having two storage heaters fitted was around half the price of having gas-fired central heating with all the rads and piping. The house had an economy 7 meter, so it was an easy route to take.

One cold snap in 1997 I recorded the temp and took gas and elec readings one night and heated the lounge to 20 degrees using the gas fire. The following night I read the meters, before and after, again and heated the lounge to 20 degrees. The outside temperature was the same. I then crunched the maths.

As I recall electric was 3 times the price, but this wasn't on the economy 7 tariff. When that was factored in the gas was slightly cheaper. When the standing charge was factored in, electric heating was slightly cheaper. I then took a very deep breath, and had the gas removed and storage heaters fitted (the best I could get at that time).

I have stayed in houses with storage heaters that are cold, and in my opinion it only works well in houses that are well insulated. It was 20 degrees in my lounge at 8am yesterday, and this had only fallen to 17 degrees by 11pm - despite it being sub zero outside

pete75 wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 10:48am

squeaker wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 10:31am

853 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2022, 6:18pm... is EPC a load of cobblers?

Yes, IMHO, because it relies on inspection (for existing dwellings) or calculation (for new) rather than performance tests post build. The rating is also sensitive to relative fuel prices, likewise the estimated annual CO2 to grid mix (relevant as the electricity grid decarbonises).

Even the inspection may not be carried out very effectively. The EPC inspection for my son's house says "Wall Cavity wall, as built, no insulation (assumed)" and "Roof Pitched, no insulation (assumed)" .
On checking I found it had about a foot of loft insulation. When an installer came to give him a quote for cavity wall insulation, the chap said it had already been done.

Thanks for your comments, I will bear them in mind for the fuure

Cugel wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 11:10am
Heat pumps - like other gubbins handling heat with moving parts, liquids and electronics - benefit from regular maintenance. Such maintenance can avoid disaster and prolong the life of the gubbins for many years. A service contract is worth the outlay (£479.40 per annum for ours) as it provides not just peace of mind but an avoidance of the need to buy a new gubbins at huge expense when the neglected one goes phut.

Cugel

I've just re-read this, and almost choked when I saw your service contract cost; it is about £100 more than my total electricity bill (and I have no other energy source) for the 12 months to April 2022.

As there are no moving parts, there is nothing to service in storage heaters so I have only spent £66 (on a new thermostat) in just over 25 years

853 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2022, 12:48pm

al_yrpal wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 10:04pm That material for cutting heat losses makes a lot of sense. We have insulated blinds like these on several of our large windows some of which are 9 feet by 4 feet ....

https://www.blinds-2go.co.uk/duo-blinds ... chalk.html

Look at all the pictures. When dropped air pockets are formed in each fold of the concertina like structure. These provide good insulation. In addition we have thick lined curtains.

Al

Insulated blinds are good, but the ones you linked to don't have a quoted insulation (they do look a lot better, mind)

The ThermaWrap product I use says :

R-Value up to 1.47 m2K/W, equivalent to 65mm of Mineral Wool Insulation

And there are better products out there, if you shop around

My lounge was 20 degrees C this morning, but when I removed the ThermaWrap 'shutters' there was a few millimetres of ice on the bottom of the double-glazed patio doors. The doors are from 2007, so nowhere near current spec, but it was 20 degrees one side of the 'shutters' and there was a very small amount of ice (and a lot of condensation) on the other side. That's how well it works, and there are even better products out there too if you look around

Cugel wrote: ↑15 Dec 2022, 7:25pm

As I mentioned in that long ramble, the house is all-electric. Every single thing in it runs on the lecky, including the motor car and my woodworking shed full of 3 & 4hp machines.

We estimate that the car used, on average, 21% of the electricity we consume over the year. In winter, it consumes more than in summer because we have the heating on in it when the temperature gets below about 8 - 10 degrees C. In addition, the motors of the windscreen wipers, lights and even a heated steering wheel (I know!) mean that in a month like this one, with very cold temperatures, the car uses about 30% of the month's electricity consumption.

One thing we did notice, though, was that despite the A-rating EPC, the house had a number of draughty spots because of badly fitted windows & doors, obscure ventilators left wide open and a fresh air inlet hidden next to the never-used woodburner. We spent a lot of time hunting out the draught causes and mending them, with properly done mastic and even some new doors to replace warped doors. This dropped the next year's consumption by 2000 units.

Cugel
[/quote]

Thanks for the update; in your lengthy post I hadn't spotted that you were charging a car

A bit concerned about the draughts, although pleased to hear you've got them sorted and the figures down

Cugel wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 1:42pm
The house EPC (Energy Performance Certificate) rating is A.

Our records show that in a very cold month (30 days) with temperatures at or below zero on most nights, the electricity usage is near or actually 1200 units. It drops to around 450 units/month in the warmer months.

I looked at these figures, and they don't half seem high for a house with an EPC rating of A and a top heat pump

853 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2022, 7:01pm I took an electric reading on the 19th of November, before I turned the storage heater on for the winter.

I subsequently found an old reading I'd taken on the 25th of November 2012, so almost exactly 10 years ago. I don't have gas, or a wood burner, so all heating is electric. During the period I have used 25197 units, so an average of 2520 units a year.

I bought my house before EPC ratings were introduced. But as there are around 40 other houses the same on the estate, I looked at the last one to sell and found it had an EPC rating of C

If we have three very cold months, and nine warm months, the house with an EPC A rating uses 7650 units, and the house that would almost certainly qualify as an EPC C rating uses 2520 units. Doesn't seem right to me; is EPC a load of cobblers?

al_yrpal wrote: ↑14 Dec 2022, 10:04pm That material for cutting heat losses makes a lot of sense. We have insulated blinds like these on several of our large windows some of which are 9 feet by 4 feet ....

https://www.blinds-2go.co.uk/duo-blinds ... chalk.html

Look at all the pictures. When dropped air pockets are formed in each fold of the concertina like structure. These provide good insulation. In addition we have thick lined curtains.

Al

Insulated blinds are good, but the ones you linked to don't have a quoted insulation (they do look a lot better, mind)

The ThermaWrap product I use says :

R-Value up to 1.47 m2K/W, equivalent to 65mm of Mineral Wool Insulation

And there are better products out there, if you shop around