Cycling UK Forum

Ok! So I started early on it this morning.

I took off the derailleur and took it apart and it didn't look bent so put it back together.

As I looked more closely at the hanger while the derailleur was off I thought maybe it was bed inward slightly.

I then did a 'cold set' aka break out the vice grips and bent it outboard 3mm or so. Now this looked straighter to my eye.

I then put the derailleur back on and the clattering issues seemed less however later I noticed that now it looks scew whiff when in big cogs. When looking face down while riding it looks like it is bending outward a bit.

When I had put everything back together and tried pedaling again to see how things were I somehow noticed that I think the jockey wheel not taking the chain is related to looseness and also chainline as it only seems to happen in the small cog. I think it was happening across a lot of the cassette yesterday so I think the hanger change did improve that.

I tried the indexing and again issues but back to the most being indexed but one side not. Having been for a 3 hour ride today and giving the gears a good workout I can say that thumb shifters seem the way to go as I was twiddling around with the barrel adjuster while riding to try and fine tune but it would not improve matters.

I hadn't even put the b-screw back on and was ok without but maybe the grumbling about shifting into the biggest cog sometimes was due to that. Might try the hanger soon as the b-screw doesn't seem to do much anyway and it is extremely awkward to do the reverse having to prize the spring back manually while angling the derailleur up to screw in.

Brucey wrote: ↑24 Sep 2024, 4:02pm FWIW you should be able to use a 9s shifter in an otherwise 8s setup by altering how the pinch bolt on the RD works, as users of dura-ace 7/8s can do when using a 9s mech.

That is exactly how it was when I got it as was discussed earlier in the thread.

As to the initial indexing issue this video discusses my exact problem under the heading incompatible parts.

rareposter wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 8:32pm 9sp MTB stuff is all interchangeable so long as it's all the same manufacturer. If (for some random reason), they are SRAM shifters on there or they're not actually 9sp then yes, you'll have problems.

I did alreay confirm that they are 9 speed with the diconnecting for the RD as you said and holding the wire in my hand while clicking and 8 clicks. Definitely shimano, I did look underneath the shifters and saw the make and model number but forgot the model number and didn't write it down but remember they said shimano.

Easiest option is to take the whole thing off the bike, fit a new inner and outer cable then try shifting (can leave the mech on the floor, it doesn't need to be mounted to anything). It should move through 9 distinct positions (8 clicks) if everything matches.

Then you can fit it to the bike, paying attention to the cable routing, and try it again, it should repeat the same

Then you can add the rear wheel, cassette and chain into the mix, set the limit screws properly and then move onto the fine detail of the indexing.

Starting with everything off the bike means it's easy to check through what the issues are before it all becomes a quagmire of "is it the cables / is it the cable routing / is it the mech limit screws / is everything compatible...?"

The mech which could be broken is the problem now. I can start early now and work through things methodically.

I am glad I didn't give away my old bike as I am thinking now I can switch out parts to test on one bike or the other. The 9 speed on the other bike, to see if is a hanger issue on the frame and the other RD on the new bike to see if it would pedal normally and if it runs straight. Obviously not expecting the 5 speed shifter to work with 9 speed setup but it can give me some clues as to what the trouble component might be.

I am familiar with the troubleshooting process with computers so I shall take the same approach here.

Oh bugger!!!

I am now in a world more trouble.

I was following the park tool article for setting the H-screw.

I got it to what seemed correct and was going through the indexing process as per the guidance.

I got everything what seemed close and as I went to take it for a ride suddenly the derailleur kept catching on itself as I pedaled.

I then went back to base to take a closer look and it looks like the derailleur has now packed in somehow! I thought the cage might have gotten bent somehow. Maybe too much tension when doing the H-screw exercise? Really did not have time to give it proper inspection in the last spurt of light.

When pedaling the bottom jockey wheel will not take up the chain and just kind of mangles in on itself and sputters back and forth not extending properly..

I looked at the hanger and I am not able to tell really if it is that. I don't see how that could bend in that pedestrian process I was just doing. I didn't drop it or 'owt.

It was going dark and had to pack everything away at peak frustration not having got to the bottom of what has happened, having cocked it up farther than ever before and the light dwindling.

Jdsk wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 4:37pm

biker38109 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 4:31pm

Jdsk wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 4:03pm Did you check the condition and action of the shifter and the derailleur while the cable was off?

What am I looking for here?

Have you run through the adjustments from Sheldon Brown or Park Tool from the beginning after attaching the new cable?

Which sheldon brown article are you referring to? I have read a couple. I read the one about RD adjustments from start to end.

I also watched a general video on park tool about changing the cable I think.

https://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html
https://www.parktool.com/en-us/blog/rep ... adjustment

Jonathan

Thanks, sheldon brown one yes, park tool one no.

roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 4:34pm Doesn't matter re cassette size. Are the shifters compatible with derailleur is the question. Before buggering about with anything else that's critical.

Cannot confirm that right now but why wouldn't an mtb 9 speed shifter of the same period and make (both shimano) be compatible with a 9 speed MTB RD?

I think the cassette size does matter. You think a 50t plate would work with it!?

Jdsk wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 4:03pm Did you check the condition and action of the shifter and the derailleur while the cable was off?

What am I looking for here?

Have you run through the adjustments from Sheldon Brown or Park Tool from the beginning after attaching the new cable?

Jonathan

Which sheldon brown article are you referring to? I have read a couple. I read the one about RD adjustments from start to end.

I also watched a general video on park tool about changing the cable I think.

roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 4:08pm

biker38109 wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 3:56pm Ok!

I got the new cable today and put it on.

Results...

Shifting is a lot cleaner and responsive but really only for the gears that would index before anyway with the trouble gears on either side still causing the same issues, just a bit less. It is closer but still will not index everything cleanly.

I can just about get everything to change but very very loosely. The highs and lows still complain. Granny gear lows are only just indexing with some jumping about and the high gears I have to overshift with click and push just to the edge before the next click to shift up a cog.

Now I have ruled that out I am thinking it is like a user on the retiobike forums said earlier that the parts were just not made for each other. As such friction thumb shifters seem to be the way forward now!

I was preferring those in the beginning anyway just due to having used friction shifting most of my time and this gives me a good justification to get them now.

Indexing is easy to set up unless there is a specific problem.

If you didn't change the outers, it could still be cable friction.

The gear hanger is a likely culprit.

And you still haven't confirmed the model numbers of shifters and derailleur, to see if there is a mismatch. They will be stamped on them somewhere.

Easy iif all the gear was meant to go with each other which it isn't. I am mixing 90s gear with contemporary. It is a mix and match. I have had confirmation this is a common issue from other experienced tinkerers on retro bike forum so not like I am just a bad workman blaming his tools.

The RD: XT 9 speed rear derailleur - RD-M771

I don't know what the shifters are off hand and I have locked it back in the garage for now. Regardless of if they match the cassette is not made for them as there were no 36t ones back when that gear was used, at least not commonly anyway to be likely to be compatible with them.

Ok!

I got the new cable today and put it on.

Results...

Shifting is a lot cleaner and responsive but really only for the gears that would index before anyway with the trouble gears on either side still causing the same issues, just a bit less. It is closer but still will not index everything cleanly.

I can just about get everything to change but very very loosely. The highs and lows still complain. Granny gear lows are only just indexing with some jumping about and the high gears I have to overshift with click and push just to the edge before the next click to shift up a cog.

Now I have ruled that out I am thinking it is like a user on the retiobike forums said earlier that the parts were just not made for each other. As such friction thumb shifters seem to be the way forward now!

I was preferring those in the beginning anyway just due to having used friction shifting most of my time and this gives me a good justification to get them now.

Got some of the stubby with a little bend on the end on the way.

CyberKnight wrote: ↑20 Sep 2024, 8:53pm Its just me , i have sold bikes in the past and wouldnt dream of selling something with those issues unless i made the buyer aware .I lurk sometimes on retrobike as i had a number of questions regarding my last build and was seeking advice .
Im glad your happy with the bike and thats all that matters

Well, although no detailing specific issues, they did mention in the ad it was a project they had never gotten around to finishing. It seems they just wanted rid for space, lack of time, loss of interest of whatever.

rareposter wrote: ↑20 Sep 2024, 2:59pm Very much this. Strip the bike down. Cables and grips would be binned immediately, brake pads are always a candidate for the bin too. Clean everything up then rebuild to how you want it.

What's wrong with the grips?

These ones are bontrager and they look like new. If they were grubby and worn then sure but these are vgc.

Brakes pads still have a good bit of a step in them.

Brucey wrote: ↑20 Sep 2024, 10:10am if the inner cable has been transplanted from a bike with longer handlebars/cables, that could leave a cleaner looking section near the RD. I prefer stainless steel gear cables.

I have ordered a new cable so will see if that helps.

How often would someone usually change their gear cables and what are the usual signs that it is time to change them?

Could it be the gear cables causing the issue?

I mentioned earlier that the brake cables were new but having looked at the exposed gear cables it seems they were not replaced and are dull and rusty. The outer cable looks new and strangely the end where the cable joins the derailleur looks cleaner so not sure why the discrepancy.

My poorly maintained british eagle bike I never noticed such issues even with super old cables but then again that was friction grip shifting so the issue would not come up I suppose!

I was going to take the barrel connector off that bike, before I realized that the new one had it already on the shifter, and as soon as I undid the cable at the derailleur it pretty much disintegrated which is annoying as I wanted to give the british eagle bike away as a working bike so someone gets use out of it.

I saw that cables are only a couple of quid though so no great loss!