Cycling UK Forum

simonhill wrote:Has the vast range (theoretically) on offer nowadays also made availability worse. Nuances of bike type; of size; of colour; of spec; etc; etc.

Yes definitely, when I started thirty odd years ago the ranges were smaller and stores stocked more as a result, these days it is more about showcasing a range, the distributor holds stock and the dealer in comparison to what we did years ago far less. We still ordered a percentage in for customers but these days that percentage is far greater.

The exception to that will be the larger multi outlet online stores, their business model is far more 'click and collect' and they use their stores far more as that, a collection point to distribute their large stock holding. That business model can work to an extent, although it has to be said it's these chains that often get into financial difficulty, but for me it's works far more on a business level than it does for what I would personally look for. I'm not just talking about the cycle trade, I'd much rather buy something from someone that offers a superior service than I would give my business to someone just because they can supply what the item I want. In the case of a quality LBS they may offer a 'sizing' and then 'collection fit', the former not only helping with size choice but often what is the most suitable model as well; far more danger of ordering the wrong size or model when it's 'click and buy/collect'.

Bikes wise many of the popular brands are presold for much of the year, we will get what we have on order but not much will arrive in respect of orders placed now. Last week I had a customer want a Medium Trek Slash 8, we had just sold the one we had ordered back in the summer and I quoted "June" for the replacement, before I had a chance to finish he said "Oh no, five months"; I then finished what I had started and said "not June 2021, June 2022!"

At first glance when a customer walks into a store they may see a shop full of bikes and often a few in boxes that have been delivered, just as they would normally expect to see; but that does not paint the entire picture as these bikes have often been ordered months ago. In reality the way we supply bikes at the moment has therefore changed, where as normally a store may show case a a model range and order in from that, the customer choosing the model, colour and size of their choice, the latter often after a sizing 'bike fit' and something that many find of value that sadly we can't offer at the moment. The current situation is it's far more a case of we can supply something that would be a relevant choice, it may not be your first, second or third choice, but it is a viable consideration. The other thing that has changed is a more traditional LBS is having customers travel from further a field should they happen to have the very bike the customer wants; a bike that their own LBS has just quoted a very long ETA for.

The availability of parts is not much better, last Saturday I tried to quote for a custom build using the customer's existing frame and updating to Shimano GRX810, nearly all of that had late summer and into the winter lead times. Many stores did OK during the Pandemic, cycling boomed, demand increased but supply often decreased as manufacturing was not seen as essential and many closed for a time. I know that many in the industry are very nervous about the next few months; I am personally part time Furlough, I am bike fitter and salesman, I can not do the former and am very limited to what I can offer regarding the latter.

Brexit has taken everyone by surprise as well, imports are slower and far more expensive, expect to see significant price increases to bikes especially.

Paul Smith SRCC wrote:

philvantwo wrote:...I think you must be using it wrong?

philvantwo wrote:If you select running as your activity on Garmin connect then it does indeed send you the shortest way around an island, NOT the wrong way. I think operator error is the problem here? My edge 830 informs me of a turn 0.10 miles beforehand, doesn't bother me in the slightest but to have a unit for 7 years then say the distance to turn is too long and is wasting the battery seems a bit late to me. Email Garmin and ask them?

Regarding my issues with course planning in Garmin Connect it's very possible that it is indeed "operator error" and that I am "using it wrong"; any chance you can let me know what settings you use so that I can at least attempt to do it correctly please philvantwo? To clarify I never select 'running' as 'course type' I select 'road cycling' then 'popularity routing' or 'follow roads'. I live in a London suburb, roundabouts and one way streets are common place and it can take me the wrong way around a roundabout and along a one way street the wrong way. You can plan a route in RWGPS where it doesn't do this; if I can work out how to use Garmin Connect course planning correctly I'd be more than happy to use that.

Yes I have had the unit since 2013 but it only just started to begin the countdown far earlier than it had been doing, it has not been like that since 2013. Referencing this evolution for me at least is in part what this forum is about, sharing information in the hope we can all learn from each other.

philvantwo wrote:How can Garmin Connect send you down a track if your plotting a route yourself? Don't get the bit about sending you the wrong way round an island either!
A road a mile away from me was closed for 2 months as Western Power were putting a new supply cable in to a substation, you could get through on a bike but Garmin connect would not let my route use that road!
I think you must be using it wrong?

Yes I could well be using it wrong and I why I started this thread as willing to learn.

Garmin Connect course planning shares routing with runners. With RWGPS and similar sites the planning can be set so so it will obey the rules of the road, a runner doesn't have to in the same way, they can run the wrong way along a one way street the wrong way and around a roundabout; overriding these on route can be annoying for both rider and GPS unit, if frequent enough the latter may even crash; annoying the rider even more!

AndyK wrote:That option in RWGPS is not as useful as you'd think anyway. It does not affect the advance warning setting in the Garmin. What it does is move all the route points X metres back along the route....

Assume you have the paid for version of RWGPS "AndyK"?

In reality I am happy with the default distance I get the countdown with RWGPS, it was jut that with alltrails it was to far away. I live in a London Suburb and 50 meters from a busy traffic light junction can take a more than one traffic light sequence before the junction is passed, I neither need the information that early or want my screen that bright for that long.

For all I know the longer countdown with alltrails is a temporary issue, it has only started to do that during the last few uploads. As a compromise although the free version of RWGPS prompts for the upgrade with 'custom cue' or 'drop poi' it doesn't for selecting 'control point', which I assume on route with give me some kind of alert when it's reached, a 'knotted handkerchief' style reminder is not as good as a 'written note' but it's better than nothing.

AndyK wrote:.....One advantage of letting it use its own is that you'll get proper advance warning as you approach each turn, at a distance determined by the Edge unit's settings...

So can I actually specify the countdown time or distance before I approach each turn via a setting on my 810?

Slightly off topic but what is frustrating and rather surprising is that with Garmin's financial clout you'd have thought it would be their interest to make their own course planning better; I've had my 810 since 2013 and although it has improved it has been consistently behind other free course planning software. It still shares routing with runners so it will still often send you the wrong way around roundabouts, the wrong way down one way streets and take you down tracks even if you have selected 'follow roads', overriding this on route effectively going 'off course' often causes the 810 to crash.

afanasiew wrote:..I'm dizzy from reading Garmin and Wahoo reviews which, if you keep looking, always seem to come up with off-putting negatives...

That is the trouble with GPS technology it can drive you around the bend instead of navigating you around it! That said when it works then I am impressed, I still enjoy my Garmin 810 that I have had since 2013, not bad for a peace of tech'. Personally I would much rather use a GPS unit than a phone with an app.

To balance the "off-putting negatives" over the years what has personally worked for me to achieve reliability and stability that make using a Garmin GPS viable is to download the course from whatever site I created it on (currently RWGPS) and then uploading via USB using a genuine Garmin lead; I never use Bluetooth or upload it to another site before sending it to the unit.

You also referenced taking a Powerbank all be it for use with a separate phone and android app to navigate by. Modern GPS units like the Garmin 830 have a much longer battery life than my old 810 so a powerbank even for longer days will probably not be needed, although on very long days mine would do, so if I needed I will carry one in my bar or top tube bag, the USB lead reaches perfectly. Last summer I rode an 8 hour day using tbt on the map screen, mid way around the course I was down to 50% battery so I knew I would be pushing my luck just using the 810's battery reserve so I plugged in the Power Bank. When I got home it had charged back up to 100%, the Powerbank (a Goji G10PBWP17) itself has battery indicator with four LEDs so you know how much charge it has left; it had all four still lit.


I already had that power bank, I didn't buy it with this in mind, it's waterproof and robust but you can get them much smaller, lighter and cheaper, plus I have a USE Exposure light I could use as a powerbank if needed. Yes damaging connections could potentially be an issue, the way I look at it this is an old unit and I'm a bit less precious with it than I once was. I have had that powerbank three years and only needed to use it once; most of my long days are on routes I know where I don't need the map screen permanently on, I can easily complete those rides without issue. I've seen a few who use a power bank to top up their device at a rest stop which would help minimise potential damage to the Usb connection.

If I was buying one now the new Garmin Edge 530, 830, 1030 and the older Explore would all be a consideration although the latter has been left behind a bit interms of battery life. For me the clear winner being the 830, the 1030 is a bit too big for my liking and the 830 I find far more intuitive to use than the 530; the latter effectively a button version of the 830 which is far more swipe screen, that said it would not take long to get the hang of the 530 plus it would save a money and work better when wearing gloves.

Would I still buy a Garmin? Yes definitely; when it works, as it does do most of the time, then I have to confess even though I am a bit of a technophobe I do love it!

Jd843 wrote:..In the house. Pros: Warm and dry, probably least likely to get stolen. Cons: Untidy, they'll get in the way, have to lean them against the walls. Bad... Where do you keep your bike(s)?

I live in a small flat, I keep my best bikes in my bedroom, I have to walk through the door sideways to get in but that's where they live; they are my two wheeled family. I don't see them as untidy, more like expensive ornaments and artwork

I am you may not be surprised single

cycleruk wrote:Paul - sorry but it appears I have mislead you a bit....I don't really use RwGPS enough to warrant paying for it

Don't worry cycleruk, you actually helped more than you think as you corrected my train of thought; you reminded me that it was actually a setting in the RWGPS software and not on the 810 itself. After that correction I then kind of guessed you were remembering what was an out of date version as it did indeed offer that feature previously; that's the trouble with free software a favourite feature often morphs into the paid for version.

I'm the same as you I don't really use any route planning software enough to warrant paying for it. Most of the time I use it for a bit of entertainment on what I call my 'head saving Furlough rides' and to keep my blog up to date which is another thing I've been doing purely to give me something to do indoors during current covid pandemic 'life' restrictions. I like to use the 'free' options that I am referencing and by association recommending, not that many read my blog; I use it in many ways as a 'Janet and John' set of tips for myself . I only migrated to alltrails so that I could retain the waypoints feature, to be honest I don't use it that much but as I found the user experience very similar I was happy to change my allegiance; until now that is. I've no clue why alltrails has suddenly started to begin the countdown far earlier than it had been, I can't see that it's anything I may have done; but now that it has it's a bit of a deal breaker.

I did do a comparison test this morning, as expected the 'Alerts' seem to be unrelated. Fortunately I noticed a useful difference between RWGPS and alltrails and that is that although you can't seem to specify how far in advance you want the countdown to begin, with RWGPS by default the result when following a course was much closer and as far as I am concerned far more what I am looking for. In conclusion I will revert to using RWGPS and on the rare event I need waypoints I can use alltrails.

cycleruk wrote:..Under "Export" TCX there is "Notify before turn" box to tick. Under that is metres in advance. In this case 30 metres...I only use the free version.

Ah that is what I think I was remembering; except selecting the countdown data was on the software and not on the 810 itself! I also used the RWGPS free version, it does not seem to be a feature offered on alltrails. That is something that would be enough to have me going back to using RWGPS, as I'd rather have longer battery life as a result of reduced countdown/screen brightness over the luxury of having waypoints. At least that would be enough, but oddly it will not let me select "Notify before turn" without an upgrade.

Looking at your screen shot you do indeed appear to be using the free version as well, I tried using the same Browser as you in 'default' and 'classic mode', so I am hoping you have discovered a good work around, if so then 'hoorah', it's why I love bike forums . Knowing my luck it may just be that although your screen shot shows the "Notify before turn" box as you have not selected it the 'upgrade box' as per my screenshots below have just not popped up yet; in which case I still love bike forums as that has made me smile

And in Classic mode

I will try selecting both 'timer alert' and 'distance alert' to see if that overrides things

cycleruk wrote:Tools.
Activity Profile.
General or Tour. - (Can also be set in "External Profile but no idea what that is for ??)
Alerts.
turn on "Distance Alert" (or Time Alert).
Set distance or time.
my distance is in miles and was set initially at 1 mile. I reduced it to 0.1 mile.
I don't know if the setting on the 810 would have priority over the setting on the RWGPS course?

I was wondering what those did, both 'timer alert' and 'distance alert' are currently set to off, as I was still getting both during navigation I assumed they related to something else! I will try reducing both to see what happens; many thanks for the tip.

I only stopped using RWGPS when adding waypoints became a paid for feature; it's still free with alltrails. I can't see if there is a setting in either that relate to 'Dist. to point' and 'Time to point' countdown?

I use TBT and audible tones when following a course on my Garmin 810. Does anyone know how to reduce the amount of time before the point the countdown starts, mine has started to give me far more warning than I want, increasing screen brightness and reducing battery life. I use alltrails to compose and download as 'Garmin Course TCX'. I seem to recall, probably wrongly, that there was a setting where I could state how far in advance I wanted the countdown begin?

Latimoos wrote:... I actually find the bike harder to ride with no noticeable improvements in my pace. I get WAY more tired, feel a lot more in the way of burning legs and just a general lack of power - its very odd....

gregoryoftours wrote:...maybe position and bike fit is an issue...

"WAY more tired, feel a lot more in the way of burning legs and just a general lack of power" in comparison to the Boardman would also have me questioning the differences in bike fit. Your Boardman may well not be correct either but the fact that it feels better then if possible I'd at least try and replicate the saddle height and set back.

You'd be amazed how much difference getting those two measurements correct makes.


As a bike fitter in many ways we are not looking at the saddle height, we are looking at a leg angle and position over the Bottom Bracket, it's when both those are correct that we measure the 'saddle height' and 'set back'. The Boardman has a 73 degree seat tube and depending on the year the Allez Comp will be similar, as rule of thumb we struggle to get the rider far enough behind the Bottom Bracket, it's why the seat posts on bikes with these seat angles have a layback pin and invariably saddles are pushed back as far on the rails as possible.

The third picture in the sequence immediately above references Knee over pedal spindle (KOPS), often referred to as 'the myth of KOPS', which I am quickly referencing before anyone else jumps on that; welcome to bike forums Maybe more than you want to know at this stage but there is much more about Kops elsewhere in the forum should you be hungry for more.

The reason I have referenced it here is that it is an easy thing to show on those drawings and then relate and cross reference to your bikes. 'Kops' alludes to more than one thing, some of it is about effort range, in layman's terms a runner at high effort, a 100m sprinter for example will generally run on their toes, where as an endurance runner will use the whole foot. A bike rider will also intuitively morph into a different position as their effort increases, the higher the effort the more they will pull themselves forward over the BB, then slide back again as that effort reduces, although they will hold that high effort position for longer than a runner will remain 'on their toes'; a TT bike will have often have a steeper seat tube and non layback seatpin to facilitate this.

Just as significant with saddle seatback/KOPS is how the rider engages their core, often referred to by bike fitters as 'BMR', to far forward and the rider does not engage their core in the same way, they may no longer just reaching for the bars, but propping themselves up by the bars. The result is normally less comfort, often translating to lower back discomfort, shoulders, neck arms, wrists and hands. If correct not only will you find it more comfortable but you are in effect more in harmony with your bike, syncing with it as opposed to fighting with it.

Colin531 has an excellent DIY bike fitting information sheet that elaborates far more on what I have done; well worth a read.

MIB2020 wrote:Hi Paul, just tried AllTrails but it seems I am unable to download a route to send to my Garmin without payment.
Will try the other one you mentioned next.
Thanks again.

I'm definitely a free member, assume you joined their site and logged in?

I use a laptop with Windows 10 to 'plan' - 'create map' - 'save map' before 'download'. I've added a screen shot of how I 'download' my saved map as below, my 'red arrow' highlights the 'three dots', click on those dots, 'download map' and the 'download route' box will open; I personally save as ' Garmin course TCX' especially if I have made waypoints, this method means on my Garmin 810 as I reach the waypoint I get an audible tone alert in addition to a visual description tab pop up

After 'Download' to my computer I then 'Upload' it to my 810 via USB and genuine Garmin lead (make sure it is the genuine lead, copies that seem to fit perfectly may not transfer the data fully) and not via Bluetooth. In theory a saved course on your computer can be imported into Garmin Connect (GC), but I have found when you then send that to the unit via Bluetooth they are inclined to not always transfer the data as created and be less stable in use and often crash during navigation. The only courses I send to the unit from GC have been created in GC, I've had my 810 Garmin since 2013 and although GC has improved it has been consistently behind other free course planning software.

It is a shame that GC route planning is so poor, as I referenced upthread going off course to stay legal at roundabouts and one way streets can also cause the unit to crash; I live in a London Suburb so that is quite a common issue for me when riding locally. Back in 2013 they made a big thing about Bluetooth connectivity which was free feature with GC and normally a paid for feature with other route planning sites; with my 'Sherlock Smith Deerstalker Helmet' on I am deducing that's what "MIB2020" maybe referring to when he mentions “I am unable to download a route to send to my Garmin without payment”?

Over the years what has personally worked for me to achieve reliability and stability is to download the course from whatever site I created it on and then uploading via USB; I never use Bluetooth or upload it to another site before sending it to the unit. Even if it is a workaround to upload a well planned course which was then stable enough for my liking; I wouldn't need to do if Garmin Connect route planning was as good as it should be; with their financial clout it has always baffled me that it isn't!!!

MIB2020 wrote:...wondering what you all think before I spend my hard earned cash...

I can get by with the free versions OK, planning and following a course software evolves and there are quite a few that you don't have to pay for that may do what you need. Many of us will have our personal favourites; you'll generally find one that you like then only change when one you get frustrated when one of the free features that you have been enjoying is moved to their premium version that you then have to pay for. Popular course planning software that all have a free version include Komoot.com, mapmyride.com, alltrails.com, ridewithgps.com, as well as Garmin Connect.

I currently use the free version of alltrails.com (was GPSies) to create the course and add to my old Garmin 810 via usb, unlike Garmin connect their software navigates roundabouts and one streets correctly as the former shares routing with runners so may not; overriding these on route can be annoying for both rider and GPS unit, if frequent enough the latter may even crash; annoying the rider even more! I've found alltrails.com quite user friendly, a course is intuitive to plan, then edit if needed. The user experience is very similar one of the most popular which is ridewithgps but with the added bonus that you can add your own notes in the form of a 'waypoint'; like 'café', 'bikeshop', a feature that is currently no longer free with ridewithgps; hence my switch to Alltrails. One handy feature I like is you can toggle between 'hiking-cycling-driving' when creating, so you can switch to 'hiking' if you want to take a shortcut over a footbridge for example then back to driving if you want to stay on roads. There are two cycle focused modes, 'Bike touring' may include a smooth trail where as 'Road biking' will be on paved roads and paths that support bicycle access.

jm-black wrote:...was just thrown off by how both fitters insisted they were right on the different sizes...

How detailed was their data, did they give you the contact points, saddle height and setback then reach and drop to bars? When you have those and significantly if you are confident that they are correct then it should be easier to work out which one of those two sizes is the most suitable. The Domane by design has quite a conservative bike fit, these are not long and low race bikes, so potentially both could be well be a viable option, it's not uncommon that more than one size in a model range can be a valid choice.

52cm
54cm
BikeCAD Morph between the two