Cycling UK Forum

thirdcrank

The deceased has left people bereaved who are entitled to express their feelings about their loss.

Unfortunately, the fact of the householder being arrested on suspicion of murder and detained for so long can only increase their feeling that the deceased was the victim of crime, while leaving members of the public of the "no smoke without fire" school of thought to assume that there's more to this than is being published. One effect of the householder being arrested on suspicion of murder has inevitably been to increase the media interest and other publicity, both because murder is, in itself, a serious matter and because the police action seems so inappropriate.

The fact of the householder being on social media with a pint of stout in each hand and on another with a shotgun hasn't helped him to avoid publicity.

I fear his happiness in old age has been taken away: awoken by intruders in his own house during the night; involved in a struggle which not of his choice; arrested on suspicion of the most serious offence in our law; and now forced to hide for his own safety.

When Cressida Dick was recently asked whether the Metropolitan Police Service was becoming overwhelmed, she replied along the lines that the police need the support of the public. Of course they do. I'm at a loss to know how the way this case has been handled fosters that support.

I've given some more thought to the suggestion of which Dr Pangloss might have been proud, that being immediately arrested and detained was somehow in the interests of the householder here. The only benefit I can see is that the legal representation at the police station would be free. There are ways round that.

Setting aside the risk of any revenge attacks etc., the next public interest event may well be any legal action by the householder, although, as I've posted before, the police's legal bods may well decide not to waste public money fighting the case. One longer-term effect of losing in court, would be that stronger guidelines on when an arrrest is necessary would be exploited by worse people than this pensioner.

mercalia

Tangled Metal wrote:Why put it outside the house he burgled rather than where he was found dead or on his way? Tributes usually go where the nifty) body was found I thought. Like at car crash locations (pet hate of mine, put something to grab drivers' attention right where it's dangerous).

By what I've read the locals seem a bit nervous about all this. Stories of black car driving around looking at house. Tributes right opposite the house where the decreased miscreant burgled with violence. The house is now boarded up and the old man and family haven't been home since the night of the burglary. Neighbours feeling intimidated by the tributes. It's all wrong.

If the guy did do something wrong that was beyond self defence then why was he released then taken off police bail requirements? He's looking more and more like the victim without guilt.

Some inflammatory comments in news sites I think too. The dead burglar is described as of the traveller community. Kind of a phrase aimed at creating a negative view of him and his relatives.

well I cant see ones view of him could be any more negative - he was a professional burglar who targeted old people, as for his relatives they dont have 2 brain cells between them doing what they are doing? if I found out that was my partner I would be so ashamed want to hide, shows a callousness that probably explains where the burlgar was coming from. I do feel sorry for the kids shouldnt be put thru that

pwa

The family of the dead man should be feeling ashamed of him and how he lived. Preying on old people! They have a right to grieve, but they should do it somewhere else and not inflict any more harm on this neighbourhood.

Tangled Metal

Why put it outside the house he burgled rather than where he was found dead or on his way? Tributes usually go where the nifty) body was found I thought. Like at car crash locations (pet hate of mine, put something to grab drivers' attention right where it's dangerous).

By what I've read the locals seem a bit nervous about all this. Stories of black car driving around looking at house. Tributes right opposite the house where the decreased miscreant burgled with violence. The house is now boarded up and the old man and family haven't been home since the night of the burglary. Neighbours feeling intimidated by the tributes. It's all wrong.

If the guy did do something wrong that was beyond self defence then why was he released then taken off police bail requirements? He's looking more and more like the victim without guilt.

Some inflammatory comments in news sites I think too. The dead burglar is described as of the traveller community. Kind of a phrase aimed at creating a negative view of him and his relatives.

Flinders

The flowers are dead in a coupe of days,and go slimy and stink after that. It must be a disgusting job to clear them up, and difficult to know when to do it to avoid the 'professionally offended' brigade.
I have no idea why people do it, bar very close relatives and friends who I suppose may feel some need to mark the place. When one of my own relatives was killed in an RTA I experienced no need to dump dying flowers at the site.

I recall after the Diana thing hearing a young woman saying that one of her 'friends' (my inverted commas), who did not know Diana at all, went and laid flowers at the palace gates. That same 'friend' had not given flowers, or expressed any grief, when the young woman's own mother had died.
In cases like Diana, I think it's mostly just pathetic people who want the excitement of being involved with big events. A sort of vicarious playing at grief, and a way of drawing attention to themselves. I find that sort of attitude repellent. A donation to a charity in the dead person's memory would at least do some good, and I'd have thought in Diana's case there were plenty of charities she supported who she herself would have preferred the money for the flowers to go to.

661-Pete

mercalia wrote:if that is my fence I would tear them down pronto

...and that appears to be precisely what has happened.

Not something I would do. A tribute is a tribute; however villainous this guy appears to have been, he still had relatives to mourn him.

But what is this 'flower power' craze that has built up mostly over the past 20 years or so (it all started with Princess Diana, so I think)? Is it really the proper way to show respect to the departed: bunches of cut flowers laid at the scene, usually still in their plastic wrapping?

I am lucky never to have had to lay flowers at the roadside for a friend or relative. On one occasion - when we took part in the March for Europe in March last year - we took along flowers to lay in Parliament Square. You will recall, there was a terrorist attack a few days earlier, in which several people were killed including an unarmed police officer standing in front of the Houses of Parliament. Many of the other marchers were carrying flowers too...

mercalia

and what do you think of this from the metro local news paper

if that is my fence I would tear them down pronto

and one paper says he is getting death threats

thirdcrank

Meanwhile, in other news, the deceased alleged burglar's accomplice is still at large, possibly relieved and even feeling a tad self-righteous with all the official attention to the person who had the effrontery to intervene.

If the Metropolitan Police Service should actually arrest this alleged burglar, the bailed murder suspect will be a star prosecution witness.

In even more news

Hither Green burglary suspect hunted by Met Police

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43704102

thirdcrank

From mercalia's link:-

While rooted in English common law, felony-murder is a rare concept outside of the US.

It's based on the concept of "implied malice."

Current English law will apply here. We now know there's no "back story" in this case:-

(The senior investigating officer) said: "While there might be various forms of debate about which processes should be used in cases such as this, it was important that the resident was interviewed by officers under the appropriate legislation; not only for the integrity of our investigation but also so that his personal and legal rights were protected."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43676359

Any meaningful further debate will be in a civil court if there's a claim for compo. I'm grateful to shootist for a link to a case on powers of arrest. (Although quite recent it may already be out-of-date. I've edited it to highlight the bits which seem relevant to our discussion.)

Lord Hanningfield of Chelmsford v Chief Constable of Essex Police [2013]

Was the arrest necessary?

13 ... The next question to be determined, therefore, is whether the arrest itself was indeed lawful.

That must be resolved by reference, (to) general principles governing arrest. In particular, it is necessary to have regard to s.24 of PACE governing "arrest without warrant". The power of summary arrest may only be exercised if the relevant officer ... had reasonable grounds for believing that it was "necessary" to do so: s.24(4). That must be judged, in turn, against the reasons specified in s.24(5):

"...
(e) to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question;
...

20 My attention was drawn to the latest guidance on the statutory power of arrest contained in Code G at Note 2F:

"An officer who believes that it is necessary to interview the person suspected of committing the offence must then consider whether their arrest is necessary in order to carry out the interview. The officer is not required to interrogate the suspect to determine whether they will attend a police station voluntarily to be interviewed but they must consider whether the suspect's voluntary attendance is a practicable alternative for carrying out the interview. If it is, then arrest would not be necessary. Conversely, an officer who considers this option but is not satisfied that it is a practicable alternative, may have reasonable grounds for deciding that the arrest is necessary at the outset 'on the street'. Without such considerations, the officer would not be able to establish that arrest was necessary in order to interview."

26 To the casual observer, these issues may seem rather technical, but it is necessary always to remember the importance of the safeguards provided by the legislature as to powers of arrest and search. The burden clearly rests on the (police) to establish that it was necessary to arrest (the suspect.) ...
...
29 ... It is not for a judge to second guess the operational decisions of experienced police officers, but in the circumstances of this case I cannot accept that there was any rational basis for rejecting alternative procedures, such as (asking him to attend a police station voluntarily.) .....

The judge went on to discuss the subsequent detention at the police station which was also unlawful. The suspect in the current case seems to have been detained longer than 24 hours, which AFAIK requires the authorisation of a superintendent

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2013/243.html

We may never know the outcome because AFAIK, the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police - not a "fence" BTW - often takes the same line as the zoo manager in Albert and the Lion but with a confidentiality clause.

How much to settle the matter?

Cunobelin

pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution.

As it should be. If it were otherwise anyone with a toolkit in their car or on their bike could be prosecuted. A lot of tools could be said to be weapons but intent must be proved.
When I was a lad almost all of use had a pocket knife or a sheath knife. None of us stabbed anybody but I bet these days a 13 year old lad with such a thing would be prosecuted without any evidence they wanted to use it for illegal purposes.

Tool kits are a matter for discussion in themselves as many (Topeka Alien) for instance have blades that lock into place and are technically illegal

However you are unlikely to be arrested for carrying it in a case within a tool kit at he bottom of the panniers and you have a good "reason" for carrying it...... but in your pocket in the Pub is a different matter

Cyril Haearn

Most households have long sharp pointed bread knives, they do not need to be sharp and pointed
The BMA suggested restricting the sale if such knives, +1
As one knows most violence takes place within the family/household, not with strangers

The shock one feels when suddenly disturbed by a stranger in the dwelling is hard to imagine especially when children are present. I am a harmless sheep but I might go mad in that situation

mercalia

now if this was Alabama USA then the burglar's accomplice could be tried for murder - felony murder

"After police killed a burglary suspect in a shootout, the officer was not charged - instead a teenage boy (accomplice ) who did not fire the gun has been found guilty of his murder."

talk about twisted laws

"Alabama's law is an example of so-called felony-murder laws and they are very common throughout the US - only seven states do not have some type of law that expands the definition of murder to include an unintentional killing in the course of committing a felony. These laws also sweep up accomplices who, again, may not have directly caused harm, but were still a party in the felony that preceded the death. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43673331

thirdcrank

pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution.

As it should be. ....

I'm not suggesting any other, just explaining how it is. Some of this is the legal advice you alluded to upthread. It's available from all sorts of sources and circulates quickly.

Another question might be "Why target the elderly?" They are sometimes easily conned, especially by anybody who appears official. Their ability to recognise faces may be impaired and so they may not be good at the identification of suspects. They may be affected by dementia etc., and even if they are not, they can be portrayed as such. Perhaps not as much as was once the case, older people often prefer to use cash, using the "sock under the bed" in preference to a bank. They tend to be more frail than younger people and so may be more easily intimidated and not capable of resisting force. Even if a suspect is arrested and charged, the typical legal delays before a hearing may mean they die before giving evidence.

I don't think that's how it should be.

pete75

thirdcrank wrote:
If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution.

As it should be. If it were otherwise anyone with a toolkit in their car or on their bike could be prosecuted. A lot of tools could be said to be weapons but intent must be proved.
When I was a lad almost all of use had a pocket knife or a sheath knife. None of us stabbed anybody but I bet these days a 13 year old lad with such a thing would be prosecuted without any evidence they wanted to use it for illegal purposes.

thirdcrank

Tangled Metal wrote:Can you really kill someone with a simple scuffle and a screwdriver? Wouldn't it need to be a very unlucky tussle that resulted in the burglars death by screwdriver and 78 year old man. If indeed the weapon was the screwdriver.

Why was a screwdriver being used in the first place? A screwdriver is a sort of Jekyll and Hyde bit of kit.

It's easily obtained by theft from any toolbox or if you have to buy one, readily available in any size you like at toolshops and no questions asked about age or anything else. It's possession is not specifically banned. It's easily carried eg concealed up a sleeve and easily dumped if necessary. It's the ideal tool for prising open doors and windows or anything needing leverage. While it has no cutting edge, it's a very effective weapon for stabbing.

If you are caught in possession of one, the burden of proof of a naughty intent is on the prosecution. There's always the chance that some bourgeois type - I have in mind Giles on Gogglebox - will fall for a cotton wool story about jobseeking.

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Re: Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested