close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

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Psamathe
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby Psamathe » 17 Jul 2017, 7:41am

Martinfry wrote:....
Ultimately you need to report it and ensure you do everything you can.....

I would agree in that we can not fairly argue how some forces are not pursuing enforcement adequately, not acting on evidence, etc. if we do not submit evidence to them. They (the Police) should be given the opportunity to act.

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2017, 12:10pm

horizon wrote:On this sort of road. it's imperative to establish a position that forces wide overtakes. Don't hug the gutter, weave if necessary and use a rear view mirror.

How does that force wide overtakes? Do you angle the mirror so it reflects the sun to dazzle anyone trying to overtake too close, encouraging them to move further out?

Cycle too close to the kerb and some nutter will probably try to squeeze past in lane - cycle further out and some nutter will probably resent it and close-pass/cut-in to encourage you into the gutter. Probably the only position that would force wide overtakes is cycling along with a proximity-activated weapon aimed to the rear and slightly right!
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horizon
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby horizon » 17 Jul 2017, 1:30pm

I could have added hand signals to the list as well. Using a rear view mirror will allow you to take a proactive role in handling passing vehicles. I find I get consistently excellent overtaking behaviour when I take charge of the road. Yes, you need to be assertive but the correct position of the bike and the right hand signals should ensure slowing down and passing wide.

Not everyone, I accept, wants to cycle like this but it is on fast, narrow roads (as in the video) where the cyclist needs to make his/her needs known clearly to the driver. I would suggest (and I accept it is a bold claim) that what the OP experienced would not have happened to me in that situation.
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby Bez » 17 Jul 2017, 1:52pm

I think what you mean is, "I've been lucky enough not to have met the van driver in the other thread".

Come on, this is a rotten piece of driving that endangered someone. There shouldn't have to the inevitable "but you weren't super amazing like me" that comes after all this stuff. People should be able to just ride a bike along a road without being nearly taken out and without someone coming along and saying that they actually shouldn't just ride a bike along a road, they should ride along the bit of road nearer the middle whilst negotiating with the person behind them and looking at them in some attempt to persuade them to simply drive the way they're supposed to.

It's ridiculous. The OP is doing nothing wrong. He's not doing what you do, well whoopee for you, but he's doing nothing wrong.

If someone were to walk through the town centre and get yobs mugging them, would you point out to them that they weren't wearing their trousers low enough round their waist and walking like a gang member in an attempt to blend in, or they sounded a bit posh when they got approached rather than speaking street, because that's what you do, you try to make eye contact with the yobs and be all confident? No, you'd just say they're entitled to walk through town dressed how they want without getting mugged.

But because it's riding a bike and loads of people think they're great at it and have worked out how to never get hit, and have so far been lucky enough not to have been hit, the first thing they spot is someone not behaving exactly like they do, and start picking at them.

People need to get over this, because it means that to go and ride a bike you need to be fit, confident, ultra-alert and assertive bordering on aggressive. Which is why people on the open road are mostly Mamils, many of whom unfortunately have more interest in adapting themselves to the environment than they do adapting the environment to everyone else.

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Jul 2017, 2:01pm

When I watch this, at one point a part of a page from what looks like a police website about reg plates appears and freezes the footage.

Also, the first oncoming vehicle after the caravan combo has overtaken appears to be a police car. Apart from being the first oncoming vehicle, is this a part of the action we are unaware of? eg Did the police car stop at the scene? Is there more to this than meets the eye?

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby horizon » 17 Jul 2017, 2:03pm

Bez: I've said nothing that justifies that driving or to suggest that it is the OP's responsibility. I say it as a suggestion as to what we might do to help ourselves on roads like these with drivers like those. People are free (as I also noted) to reject it as they see fit. In fact, what I wrote isn't even 100% relevant to the thread - but it is connected.
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby Bez » 17 Jul 2017, 2:06pm

horizon wrote:I've said nothing…to suggest that it is the OP's responsibility.


No?

horizon wrote:I think the OP had left him/herself open to close passes

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby horizon » 17 Jul 2017, 2:49pm

Bez wrote:
horizon wrote:I've said nothing…to suggest that it is the OP's responsibility.


No?

horizon wrote:I think the OP had left him/herself open to close passes


Yes, so his/her road positioning may have been better but that absolutely in no way at all absolves this driver of their responsibility in this situation. I still think the Caravan Club should have the video on their website as a reminder to caravan owners either to drive properly or even better to get some training.
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horizon
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby horizon » 17 Jul 2017, 2:57pm

Bez wrote: and have worked out how to never get hit,

I'd like to meet that person.

and have so far been lucky enough not to have been hit

which is more like it

the first thing they spot is someone not behaving exactly like they do, and start picking at them.

Well they can suggest other ways, which is what Cyclecraft does

People need to get over this, because it means that to go and ride a bike you need to be fit, confident, ultra-alert and assertive bordering on aggressive.

Yes, and that's wrong and it does indeed limit cycling on main roads to those who are either very confident or foolhardy (or both)

Which is why people on the open road are mostly Mamils

Yes. Although i sometimes wonder if that is because people over 50 did ride on the roads at a young age so feel differently about it.

, many of whom unfortunately have more interest in adapting themselves to the environment than they do adapting the environment to everyone else

Well, I insist on the drivers adapting to my presence on the road. I wish more cyclists did. But it isn't easy and it shouldn't be necessary - these people are supposed to have had lessons, be tested and hold licences.

.
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby Bez » 17 Jul 2017, 3:06pm

I get your point and I don't ride dissimilarly and we agree on many things, but fundamentally there's no way to stop someone close-passing you. The best you can do is give yourself space to escape into if you're lucky enough to have time to react. Plus, as evidenced by the van driver thread, riding further out may well lead to some form of confrontation (whether physical or not) and you'll still have people on cycling forums telling you that you were in the wrong place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't: at the hands of drivers and at the keyboards of cyclists.

I know the "ur doin it rong" comments are generally well intentioned, but they don't really help: telling someone "you left yourself open to it" when they did absolutely nothing to contribute to others' actions is not something the same people would casually apply to a number of other contexts.

It's all a bit "yeah, he was out of order, but when I go out I wear a longer skirt than that".

I'll repeat this: the OP was doing nothing wrong. By criticising someone who is doing nothing wrong, all that's really achieved is people thinking that it's wrong to do nothing wrong (and then, after being assaulted by a van driver, that's it's wrong to do a different sort of nothing wrong).

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby rmurphy195 » 17 Jul 2017, 3:23pm

Bez wrote:Basically it depends on the police force in question. West Midlands would almost certainly pursue that as careless driving, Hampshire wouldn't bother looking at the video. I don't think I've heard too much regarding where Lancashire fall within that range.


West Mercia want "independent corroborating evidence, helmet cam video does not provide this"
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Jul 2017, 3:37pm

My limited local knowledge suggests that this occurred in the Lancashire Constabulary area.

I'm not sure that internet discussion of something which may eventually go to court is helpful but here goes. I only noticed the oncoming police car (as opposed to the unexplained full-size image) when I was looking for an explanation of the overtaking driver's cutting-in manoeuvre. There's nothing obvious coming the other way which might have surprised that driver so I wonder if they were in some sort of convoy trying to keep up with the car immediately in front. :? This type of thing shouldn't happen anywhere, but my impression here was that the road was pretty quiet; it's not as though the overtaking driver didn't have plenty of clear road for a safe manoeuvre. (Before anybody jumps on me, I'm not suggesting that anything justifies a dangerous manoeuvre, just looking for an explanation of what happened.)

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby horizon » 17 Jul 2017, 3:48pm

thirdcrank wrote: There's nothing obvious coming the other way which might have surprised that driver


Yes, I was about to jump on my keyboard and accuse the driver of not allowing sufficient clearance to overtake - but there was nothing coming. My conclusion was that the driver forgot about his caravan but the car itself is quite close.

I do like the fact that the OP has captured the registration of both the caravan and the police car. :)

PS I've watched it again and I do believe that the driver had forgotten the caravan.
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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby Postboxer » 17 Jul 2017, 11:44pm

Would be interesting to know if the police will do anything about covering the number plate on the caravan too, I assume it has a registration written on it, but as I can read the car's reg on the video but not the caravan's, it clearly isn't clear.

The car is too close when it begins to pass and is already pulling in, the caravan is wider.

Also, could the red car see that there was nothing coming behind the hedge, from the view on the video, I wouldn't be overtaking there.

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Re: close pass is this enough evidence for anything to be done?

Postby ehelifecycle » 20 Jul 2017, 11:49pm

thirdcrank wrote:When I watch this, at one point a part of a page from what looks like a police website about reg plates appears and freezes the footage.

Also, the first oncoming vehicle after the caravan combo has overtaken appears to be a police car. Apart from being the first oncoming vehicle, is this a part of the action we are unaware of? eg Did the police car stop at the scene? Is there more to this than meets the eye?



in answer to your queries; If the evidence of a close pass is weak. Maybe the police would be more likely with two issues to contact the driver.

"offence to alter, re-arrange or misrepresent the characters in a way that makes it difficult to distinguish the registration number"

"The main purpose of the registration number plate is to enable a vehicle to be readily identified. It is an offence to alter, re-arrange or misrepresent the characters in a way that makes it difficult to distinguish the registration number. Offenders are liable to a maximum fine of £1,000. To provide the police with a practical and effective means of enforcement, number plate offences are included within the fixed penalty system. DVLA does not accept reports of illegal number plates from the public, as the vehicle must be seen by the police on the public highway to establish that an offence has been committed."

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/contact_point_to_register_illega

No the police did not stop or do anything at the time, they came along just a little too late and anyway I would of been positioned on the blind side to them. However they may have their own camera; and It might be a time and place witness of sorts especially if the driver tries "I was nowhere near that area on that day". Also if you look at the web link or my quote

"vehicle must be seen by the police on the public highway to establish that an offence has been committed."


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