Crisis in confidence in bike quality

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
tomoufc
Posts: 2
Joined: 15 Feb 2017, 7:29pm

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by tomoufc »

I totally forgot that I had written this post. The least I could do is write an update after so many sent helpful replies.

In the end I bought a brand new Giant hybrid, for around £500. I have not had had any major issues. Of course, a few punctures here and there, and the replacement of brake blocks, but the chain, cassette and gears have behaved themselves, after clocking up five or more miles a day, around 2, 000 miles in total . I think what really got me is that all this stuff needed replacing on a new bike after only a handful of months. A really nice mechanic explained to me in Decathlon that the BTwin hybrids were essentially just for occasional leisure use, rather than daily commuting. In fact, he claimed that NONE of the bikes Decathlon sell are suitable for daily commuting. That chimes with my experience of cycling in this part of the world - thousands at it on sunny Sunday afternoon on canal towpaths and countryside roads in the Peaks, whereas commuting by bike still is very much a minority pursuit (although it has grown considerably in the past couple of years, despite the lack of infrastructure to make many feel safe doing it). I can't remember exactly what he said, but he listed a few brands that use better quality moving parts, but still wouldn't break the bank, and Giant were one of them.

The point was never that I could not effect basic repairs such a punctures, brakes. In fact, I would say that my skills in this area are a bit above average, after years of having to do it (although I do admit it doesn't come naturally). It was that moving parts that are more difficult, or in fact impossible to fix (at least without specialist equipment), were wearing out far too quickly. Or, where I could repair myself, I could not do so until a replacement part arrived in the post, or I had the time to walk to my nearest bike shop, being without a car myself. It was one thing after another. I genuinely believe that I've actually saved money getting a bike with a better chain, sprocket and gear system, even though the initial outlay was more.

Anyway, I hope that helps someone out there. It's not intended as an advert for Giant, but perhaps to speak to a mechanic about parts before laying out cash on a new bike that your life will rely on.

As to the public transport situation in Manchester - it is indeed a mess, and very expensive, as is public transport in all cities in Britain bar certain aspects of London. The reason - the deregulation of buses leading to fare hikes, lack of coordination, and lack of integrated ticketing and austerity measures meaning that councils have less to spend on subsidising the 'unprofitable' routes. Of course, things are even worse in rural areas. Yes, the trams are good, but if your journey doesn't happen to go on a tram route, or along an arterial road into the centre which have very frequent buses, then things become very tricky indeed. For my journey from Levenshulme to the University, you may as well walk for all the trouble getting a bus or a train saves you. Cycling is a no-brainer. All other options, including driving, pale in comparison.
edocaster
Posts: 475
Joined: 10 Apr 2013, 10:43pm

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by edocaster »

I don't know about the hybrids, but I've commuted on a Decathlon Triban 3 road bike for the last 7 years. Nothing needed unduly early changing.
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foxyrider
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Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by foxyrider »

£500 has been used as a tipping point in quality by the manufacturers for a long time. The problem for bike salespeople is that trying to explain that to new cyclists on a budget is an uphill battle and many just don't bother. Kudos to the guy in Decathlon.

That said, the comment about the Triban road bike highlights another point - components used on road bikes, even at lower price points, will be more durable as the expectation is that the bikes will be ridden further than a couple of miles commute.

The OP's comments about transport infrastructure are broadly speaking true but far from universally so. Across this side of the Pennines the transport is a bit more organised with across city / mode / operator ticketing. Considering how hilly our city is, there are a lot of cycle commuters, yes the infrastructure could be better but I bet even the Dutch complain about that!

Glad you persevered and hope, with some preventative maintenance, that you have a long and enjoyable commuting experience.

PS - if you are getting lots and regular punctures I would suggest there is an issue with tyre pressure and possibly tyre quality. Talk to your bike shop about more puncture resistant tyres and the pressure you are running at.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by fastpedaller »

An interesting subject - I'll just add my 2p worth.......
Years ago when I was commuting daily I had a 10 mile direct route which I extended most days to a 30 miles trip when returning home - adding to that I also did many miles at the weekend (on the same bike), so possibly in excess of 10k miles a year. It was a quality hand-built frame, and Stronglight double chainset, with 5 speed regina freewheel and whatever chain was available at the time (latterly sedis). Anyway, the point is that I rarely replaced any parts, (new chain maybe every 3 years?). Nowadays, with only weekend mileage I have to replace the chain twice a year, and maybe only do 4k miles per annum, and (unless I'm caught out in it) don't ride in wet weather. Only 3x7 gears as well. It must be a nightmare maintaining 10 or more spoeed freehubs.
I was also thinking a single freewheel with 1/8th chain may be a good route for the OP (my Winter bike to avoid the minimise the worst of the gritty roads)
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by Brucey »

BITD I could 'do' a typical 5s freewheel and (sedisport) chain in about two months; YMMV indeed!

FWIW this usually corresponded with a mileage of between 1500 and 2000 miles. Chain was kept oiled but not especially clean.

I got so bored of replacing these parts on my training bike that I started to use an IGH instead. I finally broke a major part in that IGH last year, after about 60000 miles and a far longer life than I had imagined possible.

IME good (1/8") IGH chains last at least twice as long as derailleur chains and are cheaper to replace anyway. An IGH is not as simple as a singlespeed but it is much easier to live with.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by thelawnet »

tomoufc wrote:I totally forgot that I had written this post. The least I could do is write an update after so many sent helpful replies.

In the end I bought a brand new Giant hybrid, for around £500. I have not had had any major issues. Of course, a few punctures here and there, and the replacement of brake blocks, but the chain, cassette and gears have behaved themselves, after clocking up five or more miles a day, around 2, 000 miles in total . I think what really got me is that all this stuff needed replacing on a new bike after only a handful of months. A really nice mechanic explained to me in Decathlon that the BTwin hybrids were essentially just for occasional leisure use, rather than daily commuting. In fact, he claimed that NONE of the bikes Decathlon sell are suitable for daily commuting. That chimes with my experience of cycling in this part of the world - thousands at it on sunny Sunday afternoon on canal towpaths and countryside roads in the Peaks, whereas commuting by bike still is very much a minority pursuit (although it has grown considerably in the past couple of years, despite the lack of infrastructure to make many feel safe doing it). I can't remember exactly what he said, but he listed a few brands that use better quality moving parts, but still wouldn't break the bank, and Giant were one of them.


I find it quite interesting how different cheap bikes are built to a certain price point. If you like this sort of thing there is KevCentral on Youtube who reviews very cheap bikes and comments on how rubbish (or not) they are, and why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLQBfBeNgG0

One thing about Btwin is they do in many cases use Microshift parts, which don't have the same marketing behind them, but that doesn't make them worse.

It's not true that Decathlon sell no bikes that are suitable for daily commuting - they sell many. However, local bike shops tend to sniff at them because they are much cheaper. That said, the staff can't necessarily setup the bikes properly, so it may be a false economy if you are not capable of doing so yourself.

It was that moving parts that are more difficult, or in fact impossible to fix (at least without specialist equipment), were wearing out far too quickly. Or, where I could repair myself, I could not do so until a replacement part arrived in the post, or I had the time to walk to my nearest bike shop, being without a car myself. It was one thing after another. I genuinely believe that I've actually saved money getting a bike with a better chain, sprocket and gear system, even though the initial outlay was more.

Anyway, I hope that helps someone out there. It's not intended as an advert for Giant, but perhaps to speak to a mechanic about parts before laying out cash on a new bike that your life will rely on.


It depends on the parts really doesn't it. Without knowing the bikes you purchased this doesn't tell us very much.
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by fastpedaller »

Brucey wrote:BITD I could 'do' a typical 5s freewheel and (sedisport) chain in about two months; YMMV indeed!

FWIW this usually corresponded with a mileage of between 1500 and 2000 miles. Chain was kept oiled but not especially clean.

I got so bored of replacing these parts on my training bike that I started to use an IGH instead. I finally broke a major part in that IGH last year, after about 60000 miles and a far longer life than I had imagined possible.

IME good (1/8") IGH chains last at least twice as long as derailleur chains and are cheaper to replace anyway. An IGH is not as simple as a singlespeed but it is much easier to live with.

cheers


That must be the key to all the wear - my days using 5 speed were on Essex lanes, which I guess are cleaner! Said in all seriousness, as I can't think of another explanation.
gxaustin
Posts: 890
Joined: 23 Sep 2015, 12:07pm

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by gxaustin »

I bought a Falcon Olympic in 1978 and used it as a daily commuter for some 7 or 8 years (and still have it). In that time it would have done about 15,000 miles. I changed the BB, unnecessarily as it happens - new balls would have sufficed; and wore out an inner chain ring (Sugino). The Fibrax brake blocks survived several more years as did the Regina 5 speed block (I couldn't have got it off anyway), Lyotard pedals and Normandy hubs, albeit the bearing races are a bit crunchy. The Weinman rims are fine. I used about 3 chains and the cables lasted a good few more years. Tyres lasted ages too.
Maintenance was a bit sparse. I oiled the chain whenever it looked a bit rusty or sounded dry using 3 in 1 oil. At the same time I dripped a little oil down the cables and, with bike on it's side, I dripped a bit down the BB and wheel spindles, also pedals. There were no seals to get in the way. If the BB knocked or the wheels wobbled I'd tighten the cones a touch. I rode in all weathers. It still wears the same mud guards but I upgraded to 6 speed and a cartridge BB a couple of years ago. I sorted out some better Normandy hubs too. The Shimano Titlist rear mech was a bit worn so I bought a nice Crane and the Huret front mech is original. I changed the cables about 10 years ago since there was rust on the galvanised inners and the white ribbed outers were stained with years of use. I've oiled the headset and had a look at it once. I last used it for L'eroica (UK) a couple of years ago and it managed 60 miles easily.
Sorry for the long story - but how is it that the OP's cables need to be replaced after a few months and rear cassettes wear out as frequently as chains? I've yet to wear out a 9 or 10 speed cassette but they have probably only done about 5,000 miles as I've progressively changed them for lower gearing as I age. With my modern bikes I do keep an eye on chain wear and replace them at 1/16" stretch (2-3k miles). I lube the chain more than I did and wash the bike much more often.
Could it be that bikes were for transport in the old days and are now thought of as recreational?
Greystoke
Posts: 482
Joined: 8 May 2018, 7:41am
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by Greystoke »

Well I'm suprised to hear that new bikes do such small miles and that that they wear out so quickly.
I have 2 old bikes, like the above they're like 'Triggers broom', but I've maintained them over the years replacing bits as and when they wear out. Usually a good clean, strip and re-lube prevents new parts being required.
Maybe it's a generational thing, a throw away society now?
New bikes or new parts need adjustment, cables stretch, gears bed in etc.
Maybe I accept that where others don't anymore.
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by Brucey »

fastpedaller wrote:
Brucey wrote:BITD I could 'do' a typical 5s freewheel and (sedisport) chain in about two months; YMMV indeed!

FWIW this usually corresponded with a mileage of between 1500 and 2000 miles. Chain was kept oiled but not especially clean.


That must be the key to all the wear - my days using 5 speed were on Essex lanes, which I guess are cleaner! Said in all seriousness, as I can't think of another explanation.


I think that wear in chains and sprockets is a lot more variable than might be expected, even with the similar parts in use. I (fairly recently) found a box with a load of worn parts dating from that era in it and I think I had my money's worth in that the most used sprockets were so hooked they would not take a new chain. [Gawd knows why I kept them BTW; I think (spotty teenager but that I was) the bodies were usually OK and I had some idea that I might be able to do something clever with them in the future, and maybe I would find a source for sprockets to replace the worn ones on the Atom/Normandy freewheels that the LBS stocked. Not that I could get them off easily; I made my own chain whips and promptly broke them trying to get the sprockets off...]

Back then I just had the contents of a few books to go on and no accurate measuring tools (the best I could do was to hang the chain up and compare the overall length) so I would use a chain until it started to run a bit rough and then try a new chain on the same freewheel. Normally it wouldn't work and a new freewheel was required. The most I ever used a chain for was about six months, and that was so worn that I nearly wrecked the chainring. I remember the chaps at the LBS being slightly mystified by the rate at which I managed to wear stuff out. All the chains I took off were worn to 1% or more, when more recently measured. I remember trying various different chains and different lubrication regimes (including linklyfe) and nothing seemed to make much difference. I lived in a hilly area at the time and with few gears on offer chain tensions were very high during climbing. I think that happened was that the chain wore quickly during climbing and then took out the sprockets that did the miles inbetween. There is no way that I could use gears like that on those hills these days; it was very much a case of 'what didn't kill me made me stronger' or something. [It later turned out that I was strong enough to be competitive in hill climbs etc; it seemed that those who were not tended to get more life out of their chains and sprockets than I managed.]

I have been recently asking a friendly LBS to put worn chains and cassettes aside for me to look at. The results are interesting; obviously all cassettes show very clearly which are the most favoured sprockets but the amount of visible wear varies a lot and is seemingly not 100% dependant on the chain wear. Also slippage with a new chain (or not) depends on a few things which includes how hard you stand on the pedals. All this means that if you want to be 100% sure that you won't get slippage with a new chain on used sprockets, changing at 0.5% will do it for most people, but some will get away with wearing their chains to nearly 0.8% before the sprockets won't take a new chain. Case in point; a recent 8s cassette from the LBS looked barely worn but the chain was over 0.8% (they just changed both anyway) ; turned out that cassette belonged to a lady rider and my guess is that she didn't generate anywhere near the same peak chain tensions as some folk do. In other cases poor chain maintenance means that the chain is wearing at (relatively) high speed and the sprockets seemingly can't keep up; thus sprockets might look like they have been well-used with a 1% chain but the chain itself is over 1.5%. This is helped (I think) by chains tending to wear faster and faster as time goes on. Those who use small sprockets fare worse than those who don't, too.

These days I am not as strong and nor do I climb as many hills; not that I can try it to see, but I think I'd get more miles out of the same parts as I used BITD. I don't know how much different it could be but I'm guessing that x2 or x3 might easily be possible.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Crisis in confidence in bike quality

Post by thelawnet »

This reminds me of my son, he rows and is very strong, and rode my bike up steep gravel hills in 'unsympathetic' gears. The result was two snapped chains.

I myself have grown much more mechanically sympathetic since being in Indonesia, since it is inconvenient at best to get the bikes serviced.

There is one local lad who fancies himself as the village mechanic, which is all very well but there doesn't seem to be a process of study behind it all so much of his accepted wisdom is simply wrong.
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