if a Moulton would...

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Jdsk
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by Jdsk »

gazza_d wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 8:29amSecondly, the discussions around whether Moultons are more or less efficient than big wheelers.
In last spring's lockdown I started cycling a 12.5 mile lockdown loop with 300 ft of ascent, which is a mix of roads and surfaces. I did it a few times on the APB which is equipped with a dynamo hub and an alfine 11. I also did a couple of rides on my oldish steel Carrera Virtuoso with 14 speed Shimano. The Carrera is stripped down as far as poss with no lights, guards or racks etc, unlike the APB which is "fully loaded". The Carrera has 25mm gatorskins, whilst the APB has the 28mm Nutrak tyres.

When out for an hour so so I tend not to spare the horses.
I was surprised that the Carrera was actually slower by a handful of seconds. I have another comparison which is just a mile around the roads where I live and again the APB is quicker than the Carrera. It's not really long enough to be a useful comparison unlike the 12 miler though.

I suspect a lot of that is that the Moulton has better roadholding and handling and is quicker on the unpaved sections (2) which offsets any drag inherent from the hub gear and dynamo. I was definitely more fatigued on the Carrera as well and it was a good reminder of how plush the Moulton ride is and that is worth more to me than a few seconds an hour.
Very interesting.

Thanks for posting.

Any more comparisons, anyone?

Jonathan
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Mick F
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by Mick F »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 10:54amAny more comparisons, anyone?
Good question, and I await a reply or replies to this.

Having spent hours and much brain-power on this, I'm confident in my position, but it would be good to hear from others on this subject.
Mick F. Cornwall
RodT
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by RodT »

Ask a simple question...
slowster
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by slowster »

RodT wrote: 9 Apr 2021, 5:40pmYesterday I did a hilly 25 on my drop- bar road bike and there were no after-effects. Well, not in my wrists. Today I rode to Sainsbury’s and back, all of a mile, and my wrist hurt so much I could hardly unload my shopping. And that was on the bike with Geoff bars. A similar situation occurred last week. Also the road bike has bar-end shifters; the shopping bike has STIs, which obviously require a lot of wrist action.
It’s looking like a pattern.
1. The Planet X Geoff bars are a knock off of the Jones Loop bars. The angle of Loop bars can make a big difference (probably because it determines the wrist angle when gripping the bars). Jeff Jones advises something like a 15 degree slope. On a Jones bike they would typically be used with a relatively short stem, despite the fact that Jones frames have a short reach. If you have fitted the Geoff bars in place of a standard flat bar or drop bar, possibly without changing the stem, and without getting the angle of the bars in the optimum position, that might be a factor in the wrist pain.

2. Loop bars are inherently stiffer than most other bars (and the Planet X Geoff knock offs probably more so, since they are a cheaper product made from plain gauge thickness tubing). Jeff Jones came up with the design for use on his bikes, which are MTBs with very wide MTB tyres. The combination of a very wide tyre at a low(ish) pressure with a Loop bar and a truss fork (as used on his bikes) is one that many riders rate very highly. The truss fork and Loop bars give very precise steering and handling (more so than a standard suspension fork set up or a conventional rigid fork) and the large volume tyres provide the shock absorption.

I would not use Loop bars on a road bike with much narrower tyres at higher pressures. In that situation if there is a requirement for a bar with a lot of backsweep there are several alternative bars available without a loop, which should be much less stiff, better at absorbing road buzz, and more comfortable, e.g.:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/ ... 0mm-black/ - 710mm width/40 degree backsweep

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/ ... amp-black/ - - 620mm width/34 degree backsweep

The Soma bar above is also available with a 25.4mm clamp diameter, which should be even less stiff.

3. To echo 531colin's post at the beginning of the thread, how much weight is on your hands? Put another way, is the saddle set back behind the bottom bracket on both bikes the same?
RodT
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by RodT »

Earlier upthread, Jonathan asked me to include some pictures of my hands on the bars. Thank you for your interest, Jonathan. Here they are.
u5sU9xh5RJuGmnG5o06vSA.jpg
DlQTqlxkSyaI9fL7bryaNg.jpg
h2Zs%MEuTkylVw57PbmNig.jpg
Jdsk
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by Jdsk »

Does it feel as if your wrists might be more comfortable with less extension ("cocking")? I imagine there is slightly less when you're on the saddle rather than standing astride.

Can you add a side-on shot of you riding... I'm always interested in comments on reach and saddle position.

Jonathan
philvantwo
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by philvantwo »

Why have you fitted those bars?
It's pretty obvious to me why your wrists are hurting!
RodT
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by RodT »

1: By mistake, as in Withnail’s going on holiday by mistake.
2: Boredom.
3: Chronic need to meddle.
4: Thought it would look trendy.
5: Thought it would be more comfortable.
I wish I could put the drops back, but I gave them to my son. It was a perfectly good bike before I started to ‘improve’ it. Don’t know about everybody else, but I’m fed up with the whole issue now.
All the same, contributions to the discussion have been positive and thoughtful.
Chris56
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by Chris56 »

Hard to tell without a shot of you riding the bike but I would make the following observations:
1) Those bars are quite wide
2) The stem is quite long
3) The angle of the bars make your hands sit below the stem
These 3 factors would shift your body forwards, potentially putting too much weight on your wrists. I would try raising the bars and/or using a shorter stem. If the bars wont go any higher then maybe a riser stem?
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Mick F
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by Mick F »

RodT wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 6:01pm Ask a simple question...
:D :D
Nothing is simple. Questions can be, but answers rarely are.

Out riding mine today and did a couple of test runs at the station carpark.
Started in the normal start-point, and rolled to the usual stop point.
Then went to the top of the slope ........ maybe six or seven yards further up and then tried that.
Moulton rolled happily, and finished six or seven yards further on, but maybe two or three yards short where Mercian finishes from the normal start position.

Other than that test, the ride was great. I enjoyed the 20miles immensely and although I'm disparaging about a Moulton TSR, it was still very very enjoyable ............ you just can't be in a hurry on one, and that's fine by me.
Mick F. Cornwall
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531colin
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by 531colin »

Chris56 wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 9:43am Hard to tell without a shot of you riding the bike but I would make the following observations:
1) Those bars are quite wide
2) The stem is quite long
3) The angle of the bars make your hands sit below the stem
These 3 factors would shift your body forwards, potentially putting too much weight on your wrists. I would try raising the bars and/or using a shorter stem. If the bars wont go any higher then maybe a riser stem?
I don't think so.
We don't have a photo of the OP, so here is one of me "on the hoods"

Imagefoot level on bottom pedal by 531colin, on Flickr

OPs hands on his Jones bars are much further back than mine....just about level with the steerer
leftpoole
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by leftpoole »

Mick F wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 3:35pm
Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 10:54amAny more comparisons, anyone?
Good question, and I await a reply or replies to this.

Having spent hours and much brain-power on this, I'm confident in my position, but it would be good to hear from others on this subject.
Well, as a former Moulton rider enthusiast of some years, I sold and returned to 700c and 26" wheeled cycles around 18 years ago.
Now? Have recently returned to Moulton (TSR 30 and a Brompton). Why? Because more comfort for a very delicate ageing body.
Do Moulton cycles ride better/faster/slower? If the full testing that the late DR Alex Moulton did is anything to go by, plus records broken etc, the Moulton small wheeled cycles are quicker. Better? A matter for personal opinion based on ones own use, I think!
Does any of the previous long thread answer the opening question ?? Maybe....
Chris56
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by Chris56 »

RodT wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 7:56am I wish I could put the drops back, but I gave them to my son. It was a perfectly good bike before I started to ‘improve’ it.
So did the bike originally have drop bars fitted? were they comfortable?
If so then they would have put your hands in a decent position that would have been completely different to your current position (as demonstrated by Colin above)

I appreciate that you have given the drop bars (and probably the expensive brake levers/shifters) to your son and have invested in flat bar levers/shifters.

Would narrow flat bar with bar ends help?

https://www.rutlandcycling.com/componen ... ps__372606
slowster
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by slowster »

The images below show Jeff Jones on one of his bikes with his bars. The frames typically have fairly shallow seat angles to help minimise weight on the hands. Note the ~15 degree angle of the bars and the short reach: the ends of the bars are behind the steering axis*. The same angle of bars but with a longer reach will probably make quite a difference with very wide bars like that with a large backsweep.

Before the OP spends money on a Moulton or new bars, I would recommend trying a shorter stem. His current stem looks like a typical (longish) road stem (90mm or thereabouts maybe), so I would try something 30mm or so shorter. I think most MTBs would have a shorter stem, so if he (or a friend) has an MTB at the back of a shed with a shorter stem, just try transplanting that and seeing what difference it makes, in combination with a bit of experimentation with the angle of the bars.

*That said the grip area on the Jones bars is longer than on the Planet X copy, so there is a range of positions with hands on the grips which will vary the position of the hands relative to the steeering axis

RodT
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Re: if a Moulton would...

Post by RodT »

This photo shows my riding position. The bike originally had drops, with which I did thousands of miles touring in France and the UK in relative comfort. I should have kept them.
Thanks to all contributors who have responded to my original question. There are elements of truth in all your suggestions. Most interesting has been the debate about Moultons and the descriptions of MickF’s experiments outside Gunnislake station.
I now think my wrist problems are caused by the STI levers. The bike originally had bar-end shifters. I’m going to try altering the position of the STIs.
I’m so full of remorse at what I’ve done to this bike, it may well appear soon in the ‘Bikes for sale’ section. Together we share a glorious history, but now it’s all over between us (sob).
4FF14147-DC68-4180-B20E-EB34085D908E.jpeg
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