Tier 4 exercise limits

[mjr]

But then to ave an unknown number of people turning up to a limited space in the middle of a dangerous pandemic -

So require protests to be in open spaces during the pandemic. Problem solved.

Banning protests is a hallmark of tyrants and autocrats. Have this lot just unmasked themselves?

[Psamathe]

But then to ave an unknown number of people turning up to a limited space in the middle of a dangerous pandemic -

So require protests to be in open spaces during the pandemic. Problem solved.

Banning protests is a hallmark of tyrants and autocrats. Have this lot just unmasked themselves?

I agree but a protest the other day (banned) was in an open space but TV reports showed no real social distancing (of course it was only TV reports and I was not there but reports were "supportive" not trying to highlight failings in the protests). And even with open space if 10 times as many turn up as were expected then social distancing could become difficult and unenforceable.

I agree about banning and tyrants (which I think is indicative of our current "band of fools") but I'm unsure that using "open spaces" is enough during a pandemic which has massive health impacts.

Ian

[mjr]

I agree but a protest the other day (banned) was in an open space but TV reports showed no real social distancing (of course it was only TV reports and I was not there but reports were "supportive" not trying to highlight failings in the protests). And even with open space if 10 times as many turn up as were expected then social distancing could become difficult and unenforceable.

Just take 10 times the space and it need not be difficult.

And it is no more or less unenforceable than it ever was.

[wjhall]

The regulations from next Monday, 29 April, were laid before parliament on Monday (1), UK SI 2021 No. 364.

They appear to be a complete reissue, with complete schedules, so no working out amendments for a while.

The question of limits to exercise disappears, because the basic restriction on leaving your domicile no longer appears, the document being concerned mainly with restrictions on businesses and gatherings. I assume the 'Steps' are an anglicisation of the former tiers.

Since exercise is no longer defined as a reasonable excuse for leaving home Sir Humphrey Rules GCMG is no doubt about to issue advice banning all exercise, indoors and out. The NHS will presumably replace its foolish 'Stay Home' campaign with 'Stay on the Sofa'


(1) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/202 ... 364_en.pdf

[Postboxer]

Am I the only one who interprets Scotland's rules to meant the start/finish point can be up to 5 miles from the boundary, with no limit on where the exercise takes place?

* Outdoor socialising, recreation and exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from its boundary). For exercise, you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place. *

[Syd]

Am I the only one who interprets Scotland's rules to meant the start/finish point can be up to 5 miles from the boundary, with no limit on where the exercise takes place?

* Outdoor socialising, recreation and exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from its boundary). For exercise, you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place. *

The key point in the guidance is * For exercise, you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place.*

If you have a safe, non-crowded place on your doorstep then you should not travel outside of your area to reach another.

For example my running club sits two miles outside of my local authority area and if recommencing training runs. However, as I have ample non-crowded areas close by, I cannot legitimately attend such sessions.

[Postboxer]

Again, I think that only covers the driving to the start point and you would be fine to run to your running club.

[Syd]

Again, I think that only covers the driving to the start point and you would be fine to run to your running club.

Not according to Scottish Athletics guidance of the current rules sent to all affiliated clubs and with which they have to comply.

[Postboxer]

Would you be allowed to run past the running club, if you started from home, and weren't taking part in an organised activity? I haven't seen any rules for Scotland governing where you can do the exercise, only where it can start and finish.

[Syd]

Not according to the interpretation of the rules that I and many others, including my employer, place on them.

I have not left my local authority area for any reason since they came into place.

[wjhall]

All this talk of rules in Scotland is leaving me increasingly unclear whether it is about law or rules, and the distinction is crucial. But it has recently becoming increasingly unclear whether the rule of law applies in Scotland.

[thirdcrank]

Two points:-

Unless it's clear where a poster is based, they just risk increasing the confusion when there's more than enough of that already.

Reference to documents without linking to them doesn't help much when so much depends on interpretation.

[Psamathe]

Am I the only one who interprets Scotland's rules to meant the start/finish point can be up to 5 miles from the boundary, with no limit on where the exercise takes place?

* Outdoor socialising, recreation and exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from its boundary). For exercise, you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place. *

The key point in the guidance is * For exercise, you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place.*
....

(My bold and colour)
That is actually a clear sensible "definition" of what "local" means in this context. Open to a degree of interpretation but far clearer for people to understand and follow. And far easier for enforcement when people have clearly "over-stretched".

Ian

[thirdcrank]

I see the police inspectorate has reported on policing the lockdown. BBC here

Covid: Police watchdog says officers confused by unclear pandemic laws

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56810031

Horse's mouth here

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... ring-2020/

[wjhall]

I see the police inspectorate has reported on policing the lockdown. ...
Horse's mouth here

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... ring-2020/

Beat me to it.

The Inspectorate appears to be one of those modern bodies that does not believe in section numbering (*), the parts most relevant to the distinction between law and advice are on page 35, the most relevant quotes being:

"It is a fundamental principle of interpretation of legislation (primary and secondary) that it should be construed in the light of and to give effect to its statutory purpose. "

"The request to ‘stay local’ has never been a legal requirement. The suggested limits on the number of times a person could go out to exercise in a day and for how long were only ever in guidance, not regulations"

(My italics.)
The Guardian gives a longer quote from this section. Given the acres of newsprint that they devoted to muddling law and guidance, I hope they read it carefully themselves.

I do not suppose that this will put an end to the debate. Anyone convinced that looking out through your letterbox will infect the entire street will naturally assume that exercise as a reasonable excuse is limited to the most restrictive versions of stay local: in the same part of town, meaning not beyond the end of the street, perhaps not so far.

It has to be said, I am not clear whether the Inspectorate's comments relate to England only, I suspect they may be wrong for the Celtic banana republics. The police appear to have been confused on this point. On page 36 the Inspectorate report says that the most numerous issue of issuing incorrect penalites was trying to apply Welsh law in England and vice versa.

(*) Or document configuration control in any form: no issue number, date, or page history page.