....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby reohn2 » 18 Sep 2017, 9:52am

Manc33
It is the frame because you need to search for a seatpost with 25mm layback or more to get your saddle in the correct position,and even then the clamp won't be in an optimal near central position on the saddle rails.
The Ergotec post seems to be the solution to your problem.
Both seatposts I mention have different clamps,but you mention that as if it's a problem? :?
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JohnW
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby JohnW » 18 Sep 2017, 10:42am

Manc33 wrote: (1) Its not the frame its the Brooks and its short rails. If I throw any other saddle on its perfect. Then I want it to be a Brooks lol................(2) Didn't there used to be an old seatpost with a lot of setback? ................


(1) - I think it is the frames - we've been OK with Brooks saddles for decades, until the current passion to look like a 'racer' came upon us. This is a fairly common problem, it's not just one or two of us. Spa saddles are also leather, but they have a longer saddle rail - that's a solution that I've used. A frame that won't take bog-standard parts under everyone is poorly designed. Ray Booty was riding a Brooks in 1956, when he became the first to ride a sub-4 hour 100 - and clearly that frame was OK.

(2) - I have an old seatpin with a better lay-back - it's from either the late 1970s or 1980s. It was made by SR for Raleigh. It gets my saddle position right on a 73º seat tube, but not on a 74º . It is only 200mm long, so not really suitable for sloping top-tube frames. (There are some on e-bay.) On a 74º frame I need a Spa saddle.

colin54
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby colin54 » 18 Sep 2017, 12:18pm

I've often wondered why Brooks don't put some longer usable bits of rail on their saddles, would it be possible

without altering the shape of the leather part of the saddle itself ? They must be aware of the problems some people have,I imagine it

loses them sales. Are the rail lengths any longer on the new rubber ones ?

JohnW
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby JohnW » 18 Sep 2017, 2:00pm

colin54 wrote:I've often wondered why Brooks don't put some longer usable bits of rail on their saddles, would it be possible

without altering the shape of the leather part of the saddle itself ? They must be aware of the problems some people have,I imagine it

loses them sales. Are the rail lengths any longer on the new rubber ones ?


There is no doubt that the lack of length inflexibility/adaptability loses sales for Brooks - there's me for a start. They are, however, very good saddles and this problem, although not previously absent or unknown, has comparatively (the last 15/20 years or so?) only recently become a more common problem. We've moved from a time when bikes were bought for functional purposes, including leisure riding, but before fashion and pose became an element.

I submit that one problem is that the mass bike/frame manufacturers are not guided by cyclists - everyday cyclists that is - and we must accept that, however smart and fashionable we may wish to appear, no matter how many miles we ride, no matter how much we want people to see us as the fastest cyclist that the world has ever known, we're mostly everyday cyclists. (With apologies to Froome, Wiggins, Cavendish et al).

If yer wannabike - get to Spa. :D :D :D :D

Manc33
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby Manc33 » 19 Sep 2017, 4:10am

Riding a B17 even with 17mm of setback is the weirdest feeling I have ever had cycling. Its like you know something is wrong but can't quite tell what. Its also like you can't quite get the same power on the pedals (I don't have toe clips or clipped in shoes). Sometimes it feels like I might accidentally pedal backwards, that describes it. My bike is a perfect fit with every other saddle, with most saddles clamped round the middle of the available straight section of rail. VO on its way just for the Brooks. :roll:
What if there never have been any creaky bottom brackets, only loose rear skewers?

JohnW
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby JohnW » 19 Sep 2017, 12:01pm

Manc33 wrote:Riding a B17 even with 17mm of setback is the weirdest feeling I have ever had cycling. Its like you know something is wrong but can't quite tell what................

That really sounds weird - I've never experienced that one - I've experienced saddles too far forward, and I've tried............:
Manc33 wrote:...............VO on its way just for the Brooks..............:roll:

........................but that didn't work on the 74º frame. If you have your B17 correctly positioned, is it perhaps all in the mind? - or do you actually have the B17 too far back. If the B17 is correctly positioned, I'm surprised at your sensations.

Manc33
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby Manc33 » 20 Sep 2017, 2:38pm

From elsewhere talking about this seatpost's minimum insert...

"If you've got at least 6cm in the frame and the end of the post is at least 1cm below the bottom of the top tube, you should have no problem."

The guy that said this says he is a mechanical engineer. Others will say the inevitable "That minimum insert is there for a reason". Yeah it is but is going 5mm or 10mm over really going to be its breaking point, I doubt it unless you're over 200lbs or something.

This Velo Orange I have got (the 'Grand Cru II') has 80mm of insert on it. Image

I think I am going to have to go about 5mm or even 10mm over that, but definitely no more than 10mm. If I have it 10mm above the MIN INSERT line, that leaves 7cm in the frame.

The Velo Orange post being 300mm is right on the limit for me and it would be perfect if it was just a bit longer like 320mm. Then it would be hitting the bottle cage bolts on road bikes and so it goes.

Its a good job I am closer to 5'9" than 6'3". :)

Getting comfy on a Brooks is an education in faffing I know that, what with the previous lacing and now this. The only reason I am persevering is from the Brooks Colt I used to ride and could not even feel was there, it was so comfy.

One day I might take the Brooks off and put some thin racing saddle back on, then the Velo Orange is possibly going to have to go 15mm or 20mm above the min insert which I wouldn't risk. Beefy saddles will always be fine and the Brooks seems to have a medium/large amount of height above the rails. Some saddles I have used, the seat post difference is 15mm between saddles or even an entire inch going from something like an unpadded SMP to an old foam women's saddle. Don't laugh it was really comfy just not suitable for long rides like a Brooks is lol. :oops:

I have had so many saddles on and off I can't even list them all, but I always ended up going back to that foam woman's saddle from a cheap mountain bike. Its comfy but you're sat on a plastic frame at the end of the day so its only good for shortish rides. Had all different cheap foam saddles on, none were comfy like that woman's one is (and I do have narrow sit bones!).

Had a SMP 'style' carbon one on and while that is a really comfy saddle, you're limited to one position and it is a hard saddle which let it down for me, maybe if I had rear suspension. Then I got a padded version of that SMP and though "Its all over, this has to be comfy" but it wasn't because while the hard carbon SMP at 129mm wide is perfect, a padded 129mm saddle is more like 120mm when you're sat on it and even with my narrow sit bones I felt like I was perched on it and falling off the sides. I think it was made for people 5ft tall or less to be honest. If the underlying shell was 129mm like the non-padded SMP is then it would be OK.

Another saddle that was super uncomfortable was that Toupe one I had (143mm) the chafing at the sides was absurd, that one probably lasted the shortest time on the bike. 91g that thing weighs. :shock: Maybe it does but its brutal lol, like most saddles seem to for me it widens too soon so the sides rub. Thats why I like the SMP ones but sod spending £180 on a saddle.

It was either keep my Thomson with its 17mm setback and put up with swapping 8 saddles around (never using a Brooks because of the setback) and keep saving up for a SMP, or get a VO post and put the Brooks on which is about half the cost.

If buying new parts, a VO post + Brooks saddle is going to be about £140 as opposed to £230 for a Thomson and a (real) leather covered SMP. Buying a used VO post and Brooks you can chop it in half again to about £75 probably.
What if there never have been any creaky bottom brackets, only loose rear skewers?

JohnW
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Location: Yorkshire

Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby JohnW » 20 Sep 2017, 7:30pm

Manc33 wrote:From elsewhere talking about this seatpost's minimum insert...

"If you've got at least 6cm in the frame and the end of the post is at least 1cm below the bottom of the top tube, you should have no problem."

The guy that said this says he is a mechanical engineer. Others will say the inevitable "That minimum insert is there for a reason". Yeah it is but is going 5mm or 10mm over really going to be its breaking point, I doubt it unless you're over 200lbs or something....................

...................."That minimum insert is there for a reason"
................yup - that's right - most of us wouldn't question it - you risk it if you want, but you'll not hear the bang if it fails - it'll happen too quickly.

Manc33
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby Manc33 » 22 Sep 2017, 6:59am

The tilt on the VO post only allows for the nose to be slightly turned up on the B17 (and on an old plastic/foam saddle). Setting the tilt moves the saddle forward and back which is different to a normal 2 bolt design like the Thomson. The top part of the clamp is thin looking, wouldn't want to clamp carbon rails on it. :)

My B17 is on life support drying out after another attempted degreasing, its soft and too supple, I am getting the ISO alcohol on it next if the last cleansing didn't work (boiling water and Muc Off intermittently a few times each). Yeah I loosened the front bolt fully before the boiling water. :wink: I just want the leather stiff/dry as possible so the sides don't flare (without laces) if I sit on the saddle. When its almost hard enough to snap, I will put an extremely thin smattering of Proofide on - maybe.
What if there never have been any creaky bottom brackets, only loose rear skewers?

JohnW
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Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby JohnW » 22 Sep 2017, 11:56am

I don't think that you're going to save your B17's life now, Manc! :cry:

Manc33
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015, 9:37pm

Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby Manc33 » 22 Sep 2017, 10:57pm

JohnW wrote:I don't think that you're going to save your B17's life now, Manc! :cry:


If it never dries out from being greasy I agree but if I can get it like wood I can't see why it won't last.

There's like a period of time just after cleaning it that catches me out, the saddle can be knocked on its so hard (this is 24h later) but then another 24h after that its dried out from being wet with water but the oils have again evened out from the core to the surfaces top and bottom.

As Bubbles says in Trailer park Boys "Gre-he-he-he-heasy!"

I might do a new thread to detail the cleaning antics I have gone through with it up to now and to give some conclusion as to if it worked or not. :oops:

JohnW the stuff I am now doing is indeed risking it a lot but I would rather have tried and failed than be riding around on it collapsing or needing laces, the laces rub my legs or feel like they are. Ideally it needs lacing only at the bottom of the curve and only with holes about 1cm apart like the Velo Orange saddle, but this will over time cause a bulge which is why I have it laced along 2 rows. Handy for shaping it or "blocking" as they say to make it dry out that shape.

Like I said though I have fallen for that before where I think "Wow thats gone far stiffer" then after a few days the oils have evened out again and its sloppy again. One funny thing is I sat on it when it was greasiest and wow was it comfy, even with the sides flaring and pressing my legs. Never rode on it like that though, I have a feeling that would be a whole other story with a lot of chafing included.

Thats why I am trying to get it stiffened and dried out, because I just don't fancy lacing it only at the bottom (which is needed because the laces rub if its fully laced) because that causes a bulge at the sides so hardening it is probably the best bet, if it ruins it it ruins it. I still got my old woman's saddle thats comfy and the silly 129mm padded SMP shaped thing thats actually (due to the foam) something like a 115mm saddle and feels like I am falling to one side of it or the other, can't sit on top of it. The 129mm hard (carbon) SMP is a world apart and does support me perfectly but its bare carbon and too hard for me.

One option is the SMP Composit (or similar) with only a covering of leather on it (the TRK is not comfortable at all and I have a feeling the Extra - albeit only 140mm - would be like the TRK with too much padding and lose that magic shape the SMP's have). Problem is that Composite is a ludicrous price. One guy in one forum said he put off buying one for ten years because of the price and ended up getting one. Yes I know why as well... the hard carbon SMP is comfy but it does need something there and I can imagine one layer of leather would be enough even though thats not classed as padding... on a long ride, comparing with bare carbon, it is.
What if there never have been any creaky bottom brackets, only loose rear skewers?

JohnW
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Location: Yorkshire

Re: ....the "new" Velo Orange layback seatpost?

Postby JohnW » 22 Sep 2017, 11:18pm

Best of luck Manc - this is the first time I've heard of the chain of events you're describing. I do remember when the world was young, and when I was too, the 'old guys' in the club, who to me were the fount of all knowledge, stressed upon me the virtues of neatsfoot-oiling leather saddles...............I overdid it - learned my lesson - and very shortly finished up with a slack hammock that defied description.

That saddle was wasted, but ever since that I've used Proof-hide (Brooks' own stuff) as instructions. There was an interim when I used beeswax quite sparingly - probably before I discovered Proof-hide - and don't remember suffering from that use. I remember a racing man I knew who used glycerine on his saddles, but I don't know how it worked out............I wonder if it made him go faster? :roll: :roll:

If you do get your saddle as hard as wood (which I doubt, however) you may regret it :cry: :cry: :cry: .


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