or recognise this CX frame and forks?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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Indeboat
Posts: 121
Joined: 4 Oct 2012, 5:59pm
Location: Derbyshire

or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by Indeboat »

Hello All.
Picked this frame up at the weekend,previous owner had no info about the frame.
It has early style Nervex Pro Lugs,and Huret droputs.
It has no holes drilled in the rear fork bridge or the front forks for mudguards(not used on CX Frames).
No mudguard eyes on the rear dropouts or the front forks.
Seat tube diameter OD =28.15mm
ID = 26.4mm
It has swaged chainstays on the inside for extra tyre clearance.
Rear brake cable run on top of top tube with a nice little loop to steady the front part of the rear brake outer.
No sign of any decals or head tube badge fitment.

It could be that it was made up as a one off to order for a CX racer or company made,any ideas :)

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Picture of the previous owners setup

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Brucey
Posts: 44666
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by Brucey »

I think it might be French, or at least constructed from French parts/tubeset. The seat tube being undersize (vs a standard tubeset) is something of a giveaway. If the tubeset is a lightweight one the seat pin is usually 26.6mm in a French tubeset.

If it was built in the UK (or for the UK market) then the BB threads and headset threads could be BSC, still with French dimensions elsewhere.

If there is a frame number this might give a clue to the frame's origins. It might be worth posting details on a French cycling forum.

If the frameset (frame and fork) together weigh around 6lbs then the frame is reasonably lightweight (comparable with 531DB more or less). However I suspect that it may be a little more than that; the frame appears not to have been hand-finished to any great extent. For example the rear dropouts have not been blended where they meet the chainstays and the lugs have not been filed except on the points; these are not usually the hallmarks of a first-class frame.

BTW it may just be an optical illusion (aided perhaps by the fact that the seat angle appears to be nowhere near parallel to the head angle) but your photo of the head tube makes it look as if the frame might be twisted slightly. Worth checking that.

The brake bosses are almost certainly Mafac ones and back in the day it was normal to use the pressed steel Mafac rear hanger (rather than a braze-on of some kind) because it was lighter (and cheaper) than anything else. [Although a few racers would actually drill the seat post and use that as the hanger... :shock: ] The gear lever bosses look a lot like Simplex ones; if they are old simplex ones they may originally have been tapped M5 x 1 rather than M5 x 0.8.

Old CX frames can make nice training/do anything frames; however they are often built so light (and with steering geometry so quick) that they can't be loaded up without starting to steer poorly. Also the wheelbase is usually kept short, so that once you fit mudguards (using clever adaptations if you don't want to drill anything), there is nearly always toe overlap, even on quite large frame sizes. The other feature that can be a blessing or a curse is that the top tube is often kept shorter than normal for any given frame size.

BTW if you want to fit mudguards or a rack to the rear, P clips may suffice but there are also options involving adaptors that fit into the triangular cutout in the rear dropout. Blackburn used to make such things.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Indeboat
Posts: 121
Joined: 4 Oct 2012, 5:59pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by Indeboat »

Hello Brucey,thanks for the info
The gear lever bosses do seem to be as you said as standard Shimano downtube lever bolts manage 1.5 turns then get tight.
The frame is ok , not out of true any where.
Frame and forks comes in at a tad under 6lbs,also the bottom bracket is imperial ,Steerer is 1" threaded headset ISO 26.4mm crown race.
The frame does have very clear frame numbers, on the under side of the bottom bracket on the drive side are the following.
55
565
Then on the non drive side of the bottom bracket 15200

I believe the 55 is the seat tube in cm.
The 565 is the top tube being 56.5cm

then the 15200 being the frame number.

So who puts the frame size on the bottom bracket?
Brucey
Posts: 44666
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by Brucey »

FWIW a 1" threaded headset will happily thread onto a French steerer, but in service the thing won't stay tight and the threads will be damaged. It would be rather unusual for a French frame to have 1" threads 'back in the day' when simplex gear lever bosses were still being used.

Maybe you have done this already but if you want to be absolutely sure what you have, you need to measure the fork threading; a French fork thread will measure ~24.9mm to 25.0mm OD and the pitch is 1mm. It is easy to check the pitch, just get an M6 x 1.0mm bolt and lay it alongside the steerer. If the fork thread is 1.0mm pitch the threads will 'mesh' perfectly; if in fact the thread is 24tpi then the 1.0mm thread bolt won't mesh and it will rock slightly even on a short length.

If the frame is fully French then instead of a 28.575mm (1-1/8") seat tube it will have the skinny 28.0mm one (check!) , 35 x 1.0mm French BB threads (RH threaded both sides....) as well as a 25.0 x 1.0mm headset thread and a 22.0mm quill stem diameter (vs 22.2mm, i.e. 7/8" for a BSC frame). So look out for those things.

NB a BSC BB cup will enter the frame (both sides, even though the thread is the reverse direction on the RH side) if you have a French threaded frame, so if a BSC cup screws in, it doesn't prove it isn't a French threaded frame. The clue is normally that the LH cup is a rattling fit (if it is in only a few turns, after which it will start to bind) and the RH one feels a bit weird going in, if you have BSC cups in a French frame.

1.370" BSC cups are 34.798mm nominal diameter vs 35.0mm of French cups. The same trick as before can be used to measure the thread pitch and the BSC BB thread is 24tpi vs the 1.0mm pitch of a French thread. If someone has run a BSC tap through a French frame the threads will be pretty crap whatever you try and screw in there.

BTW at that weight the tubeset is a good one and you may find that the correct seat pin size is actually 26.6mm rather than 26.4mm in a French spec frame. A 26.4mm seat pin might be (wrongly) installed in an unreamed frame. You will usually know it is the wrong one if it rattles much with the binder bolt slack.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Indeboat
Posts: 121
Joined: 4 Oct 2012, 5:59pm
Location: Derbyshire

Re: or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by Indeboat »

All Hail !!!!!!the Venerable fountain of knowledge that is BRUCEY :D 8)

As you suspected Brucey the fork steerer is 25mmx1mm. New French head set kit ordered and on its way.

Bottom bracket = Both RH thread 1mm. although the drive side does look as if it has had a LH imperial BB screwed in at some point,but looks to be reusable with the correct French BB,new BB yet to be ordered.

Seat post = I have a 26.4mm from an old MTB that comes out @26.31mm that fits as you say with a slight rattle at the top with a slack pinch bolt,i have another seat post from an Viscount Aerospace Sport frame that comes out @26.67 mm that enters the seat tube but not likely to go as far as it would need to go.Having said that the larger seat post from the Aerospace is far from being round 26.74mm max.Sheldon lists the Aerospace seat post to be 26.8mm.
So it is possible that the 26.6mm that you suggest is the one to fit.

I must thank you for your input about the frame and tech knowledge :D :D
BigG
Posts: 984
Joined: 7 Jun 2010, 4:29pm
Location: Devon

Re: or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by BigG »

My old Simplex gear lever bosses were tapped for 3/16" Whitworth as Simplex, Cyclo Benelux and Huret levers sold in the UK all used this thread then. The 1.5 turns on an M5 bolt would suggest this.
JohnW
Posts: 6667
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: or recognise this CX frame and forks?

Post by JohnW »

Indeboat wrote:All Hail !!!!!!the Venerable fountain of knowledge that is BRUCEY :D 8)....................

I go along with that, absolutely :D :D :D :D

I've found all this so very interesting and instructive - and generally educational. Thanks, Indeboat, for raising the question.
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