Holdsworth Frame Numbering

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
1942alexander
Posts: 253
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby 1942alexander » 8 May 2017, 8:46pm

Many thanks, Laurence,
This thread suggests that my frame is possibly early 1953 from the frame number. LLoyd's 531 decal give it a date of 1951/2, but could well be 1953 due to using up stock of decals. Classic Lightweights give a date of, at latest, 1953 because the badge was changed in that year.
I think if I now call it a 1953 frame, It won't be far out.
Cheers... Alex

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 12 Sep 2017, 9:02am

Roadster wrote:My Mistral has frame #048397 and must therefore have been made in late 1983, yet it was not sold until after October 1984. I know this because I still have the bike as well as the 1983 brochure, the hang tag and the Oct '84 price list which all came with it.

I think I must've bought it in early 1985 when Holdsworth were at the point of collapse and Mistrals were on clearance sale for £359 per complete bike. That was the price I paid - ludicrously cheap even for the time and an offer I simply couldn't refuse.

As far as I'm aware, all Mistrals had 27" wheels (with Campagnolo Nuovo Tipo hubs and Super Champion rims) but by 1983 were the only model still to retain them, all other models (Avanti 501, Elan, Special etc.) having 700c. As my frame's history shows, this was no doubt due to the fact that by 1983, Holdsworth were already making more Mistrals than they were able to sell.


Yes, I would not claim 100% accuracy, may be +/- a year or so. Also its not unusual to see frames sold up to a year late too. What you can be sure of is the documentation on when it was sold.

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 12 Sep 2017, 12:04pm

drossall wrote:I've got #44805, a little earlier in 1983 it seems.


Hi, could I ask if this number has a leading zero?

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 12 Sep 2017, 12:15pm

custom753 wrote:I am in New Zealand and have two Professionals.

The most recent is #014689 in original metallic 'peacock' blue, slightly deeper than the blue on the team Professionals. The components I bought it with appeared to be original (going off the paint quality under clamps etc) and they, and the SN, point to around 1979. The photo is from when I first bought it prior to clean up.

The earlier bike, SN 34454, is a factory model, based on the seat stay strap and rivets on the head badge. The lack of chrome implies 1969, which is consistent with the second chart you published. The photo is from today - I've only just taken it out of the box and am about to start stripping it for resto.

Thanks for the research you're doing into these beauties.

Laurence


Thanks, not sure why I missed this, now added to file

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 12 Sep 2017, 12:25pm

1942alexander wrote:These are some photos of two Holdsworths that I thought were 1951/2. The very small 531 decal was listed by Lloyd transfers as only being used in those years. Does anyone know when the type of head badge shown was replaced by the later type. The frame number on the grey frame is 16020 but just at the moment I can't find the number of the cream "Tornado" frame. I've just finished refurbishing the grey "Cyclone" one, two days ago. It's now a red one.
531Decal.jpgWFH2Decal531Small.jpg
Badge.jpgFWH2BadgeSmall.jpg
WFH2Small.jpg


I would stay with 1952 for the Cyclone, 16020. Did you ever find the frame number on the Tornado?

1942alexander
Posts: 253
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby 1942alexander » 12 Sep 2017, 12:36pm

Recently bought this "Whirlwind" and in the process of refurbishment. From the number on the fork and rear dropouts it seems to be a 1952 frame. The original badge came with it and is of the enamelled type which I hadn't seen before. All I could find about this particular badge was a vague reference in Classic Lightweights, and, on another site, a partial side photo of one devoid of any colour. I had hoped this badge would at least give another clue as to the year of the frame because the numbers, in 1951/2/3, seem to be a little mixed up, according to the previous data graphs. The dropouts will not take a modern 10mm axel. They are made for the earlier 3/8th", maybe that's a clue.

DSCN1989Small.jpg


Badge01Small.jpg


DSCN1973Small.jpg

1942alexander
Posts: 253
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby 1942alexander » 12 Sep 2017, 3:04pm

dwscrimshaw wrote:I would stay with 1952 for the Cyclone, 16020. Did you ever find the frame number on the Tornado?

Sorry. As yet no number. I sold this bike a couple of years ago but by then I had replaced all the dropouts. I'm still in touch with the buyer but until he can get at the fork number we're stuck.

drossall
Posts: 4246
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby drossall » 12 Sep 2017, 11:10pm

dwscrimshaw wrote:
drossall wrote:I've got #44805, a little earlier in 1983 it seems.


Hi, could I ask if this number has a leading zero?


You're right, I've just checked my log and it's 044805. I'd be interested to know why it's significant :D

Brucey
Posts: 31510
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby Brucey » 12 Sep 2017, 11:31pm

I think it is because 44xxx indicates a frame from about 1976 in one sequence and 044xxx indicates a frame from the early '80s that comes from a different number sequence.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

drossall
Posts: 4246
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby drossall » 13 Sep 2017, 12:03am

From the components, I've no doubt it's an 80s model. But my error missing the 0. They can be very significant :D

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 13 Sep 2017, 12:59pm

Yes Exactly right. With the leading zero it is part of the 6 Digit factory system that replaced all other numbering systems form 1976. The other main system the factory used was 5 Digits without zeros and got unto around 44000.

As mentioned above the style of the frame would also confirm the age, but as I have been documenting numbers it would be good to confirm. Updated files on the Google cloud.

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/fold ... TNKZkN4TmM

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 13 Sep 2017, 1:02pm

1942alexander wrote:
dwscrimshaw wrote:I would stay with 1952 for the Cyclone, 16020. Did you ever find the frame number on the Tornado?

Sorry. As yet no number. I sold this bike a couple of years ago but by then I had replaced all the dropouts. I'm still in touch with the buyer but until he can get at the fork number we're stuck.


Ok no problem, would be good to know if you do get it.

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 19 Apr 2018, 2:38pm

To try and tidy up on the net I have removed old copies of the charts. Latest attache below.

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/fold ... TNKZkN4TmM
Image Attachments
Holdsworth Frame Numbers.PNG
Holdsworth Frame Numbering.PNG
Holdsworth 6 Digit Frame Number Progression.PNG
Holdsworth 5 Digit Frame Number Progression.PNG
Holdsworth 5 _ 6 Digit Frame Number Grouping.PNG

1942alexander
Posts: 253
Joined: 29 Dec 2012, 8:11pm
Location: Lancashire (summer), Tenerife (winter)

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby 1942alexander » 19 Apr 2018, 5:50pm

That's great work, dwscrimshaw. It puts my "Whirlwind" firmly into 1951 but unfortunately, looking at the other Holdsworth sites, it's now become a "Sirocco". Don't know whether to laugh or cry... I always wanted a "Whirlwind" :(

SmallWFHhead.jpg


DSCN1989Small.jpg


Cheers...Alex

dwscrimshaw
Posts: 12
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 8:13am

Re: Holdsworth Frame Numbering

Postby dwscrimshaw » 20 Apr 2018, 1:12pm

I have to say I am no expert in the exact details of the difference, I would consider it a special type of whirlwind. I think it comes down to which lugs you like. Not sure what site you looked at as there are a few, but this owner seems to want it the other way around.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bi ... ry-rb.html