Why "womans cycling interests"

[Psamathe]

Might I politely suggest that personal political views are kept away from this forum. ie below


"As we now know human sexuality is a spectrum of an infinite number of gender identity .ties. "

A strongly opinionated view point based on opinions which I and probably others find offensive"

Why should people not discuss things that you don't like? Maybe you could provide us with a list of things you are happy with so we can constrain what we do discuss?

You may find it objectionable but such issues are "mainstream" these days e.g. Brighton Council have asked schoolchildren to select their gender and gave them 24 different options to chose from (including "Androgynous, Bi-gender, Non-binary, etc"). Should you also be raising you objections with Brighton Council (and many others)?

(I do not necessarily agree with the view expressed you object to but it is a valid view).

Ian

[Psamathe]

TBH Old_windbag, we are singing from the same song sheet, i feel very sad that my younger and newer to cycling sisters perceive they will be derided or meet some fairly aggressive answers. I started cycling in the late 70's and received nothing but respect and sensible explanations to questions and my thirst for knowledge about bikes and why this was better than that etc.....
In some respects from what I have read or gleaned from other ladies, it appears that when they try to join clubs or ask .. they do receive testosterone fuelled machismo responses or attitudes..... I find that very sad... and feel we have regressed rather than moved forward....

(Being a bloke) I think that isolating a gender because of excessive testosterone does not help solve a problem. I'd prefer that the forum be welcoming to all and that testosterone fuelled responses (mine included) get quickly stamped-on by the moderators. That would seem one way to start solving the problem rather than side-stepping it. What I would hope would be a very small minority of people making these testosterone enhanced posts would quickly learn (or move-on).

In practice the anonymity afforded people on the internet can itself be a great help in that the minority with testosterone to spare looking to "be nasty" to the opposite gender cannot actually normally identify the poster gender (or it can be easily masked - don't sign "Jane" and chose a gender neutral forum name). In fact, posting a question to a Woman's Section might be more likely to attract these testosterone junkies as it makes it far more likely the poster is female (losing that gender anonymity).

Some men can be sensitive and novice and ask questions equally likely to attract a over testosteroned poster so I would be interested if it is a question of the poster gender or the reception of such responses.

(That said, I'm not arguing that the section be closed down - though I may have in the past and might in the future ...)

Ian

[old_windbag]

Might I politely suggest that personal political views are kept away from this forum. ie below


"As we now know human sexuality is a spectrum of an infinite number of gender identity .ties. "

A strongly opinionated view point based on opinions which I and probably others find offensive"

I read that and took it light heartedly mattsccm because I did not take that as the view of the poster but their humoured link to an article of extreme stupidity in a newspaper. The article was pointing out the way things are in the US. How sub-division can be simply taken too far. Didn't take it that it was meant to offend.

TBH Old_windbag, we are singing from the same song sheet

I think one major difference today compared to the past is in who rides bikes. I wasn't around in the 30's/40's but from all the old film footage and documentaries it always looks as though hiking and cycling were 50/50 male female pursuits. Nice clubs of mixed sexes where people would socialise, even meet their future husband/wife. If this is how it was, it may simply have been due to the fact the car was not the primary mode of transport, it was buses and bikes for all, men and women. Perhaps with the advent of the car and it's rise to be our main mode of personal transport the bike has become more niche and male dominated. It's a shame as I'd prefer 50/50 bike use-age, but the reality I see is more 90/10 m to f.

[eileithyia]

TBH Old_windbag, we are singing from the same song sheet, i feel very sad that my younger and newer to cycling sisters perceive they will be derided or meet some fairly aggressive answers. I started cycling in the late 70's and received nothing but respect and sensible explanations to questions and my thirst for knowledge about bikes and why this was better than that etc.....
In some respects from what I have read or gleaned from other ladies, it appears that when they try to join clubs or ask .. they do receive testosterone fuelled machismo responses or attitudes..... I find that very sad... and feel we have regressed rather than moved forward....

(Being a bloke) I think that isolating a gender because of excessive testosterone does not help solve a problem. I'd prefer that the forum be welcoming to all and that testosterone fuelled responses (mine included) get quickly stamped-on by the moderators. That would seem one way to start solving the problem rather than side-stepping it. What I would hope would be a very small minority of people making these testosterone enhanced posts would quickly learn (or move-on).

In practice the anonymity afforded people on the internet can itself be a great help in that the minority with testosterone to spare looking to "be nasty" to the opposite gender cannot actually normally identify the poster gender (or it can be easily masked - don't sign "Jane" and chose a gender neutral forum name). In fact, posting a question to a Woman's Section might be more likely to attract these testosterone junkies as it makes it far more likely the poster is female (losing that gender anonymity).

Some men can be sensitive and novice and ask questions equally likely to attract a over testosteroned poster so I would be interested if it is a question of the poster gender or the reception of such responses.

(That said, I'm not arguing that the section be closed down - though I may have in the past and might in the future ...)

Ian

I think you mis-read my post, in no way was there any suggestion that the men on here are aggressive and testosterone fuelled, I have perceived that over the years they are very polite and welcoming to all with a few exceptions where a debate has become a little heated....
What I said is women's perceptions of what they MIGHT come up against based on attitudes they have perceived or been subjected to in other areas. fora or cycling clubs......

If the ladies' find their way here and see the women's cycling interests section it might at least make them feel a little more welcome.

All the comments I have read so far are just continued repeats of the very extensive thread we had before the section was established. I came on to just to answer one persons question and we seem to have opened up all the same old same comments.

no one denied that some men may also feel awkward asking questions that might seem obvious to those of who have a lot of experience.... right at the start of forming the women's section, which is why keeping it makes sense as it does at least give the impression that we are open to those who may feel more vulnerable....

[pete75]

How does your club's Facebook page cope with the fluid nature of gender where a person can identify as a women one day and a man the next?

Gender isn't fluid it's fixed by chromosomes which, currently at least, can't be changed.

[landsurfer]

How does your club's Facebook page cope with the fluid nature of gender where a person can identify as a women one day and a man the next?

Gender isn't fluid it's fixed by chromosomes which, currently at least, can't be changed.

Very plus 1.

[old_windbag]

I think many of todays confused gender issues are psychological. Yes there will be the genuine cases where their affinity to being one sex or the other stems from chromosomes and hormone levels but I think outside of that very small percentage it's a reflection on modern society. We seem to have, via social media etc, created an environment that fuels "you feel that way, oh you must have this condition". I don't think transgenderism has ever been in the 10's of percent of the population but from my own experience of people I've known who jumped ship, it seems to be rising. Probably because it's more open to come out now. But one person was very mentally troubled even beyond changing "gender", which pointed to deeper seated issues than what they thought they were gender wise. Blackbikes gender article highlights the confused state we are getting to.

Let's hope this in't the effect of oestrogen in the water supply .

[Psamathe]

I think many of todays confused gender issues are psychological. Yes there will be the genuine cases where their affinity to being one sex or the other stems from chromosomes and hormone levels but I think outside of that very small percentage it's a reflection on modern society. We seem to have, via social media etc, created an environment that fuels "you feel that way, oh you must have this condition". I don't think transgenderism has ever been in the 10's of percent of the population but from my own experience of people I've known who jumped ship, it seems to be rising. Probably because it's more open to come out now. But one person was very mentally troubled even beyond changing "gender", which pointed to deeper seated issues than what they thought they were gender wise. Blackbikes gender article highlights the confused state we are getting to.

Let's hope this in't the effect of oestrogen in the water supply :lol: .

I agree. I wonder (and I mean wonder as I am no expert and open to differing views) if the invitation to question such things and the "getting special attention" from choosing a male or female gender almost encourages some to consider themselves outside the male/female categories (and then get all the extra attention that goes with this). I wonder if this is more so the case when younger school children are repeatedly asked about their gender.

Same as I wonder if some of the high rate of younger school children "suffering stress" is brought about by the suggestion that they are under such pressure and are they sure they are not suffering stress and sure they don't need special counselling, etc. I remember my school days as we were under a lot of pressure, exams after exams, revision for mocks, pressure to do more, do better in these exams that would determine the rest of our lives ... and we just knuckled down and got on with it not understanding there was even such a thing as "suffering from stress" (because nobody told us about it and never suggested we might suffer from it).

I certainly don't mean to belittle those who genuinely feel neither male nor female, and similarly, no intention to dismiss those school children who genuinely are suffering stress. But I do question the increase in such things corresponding to the "socially aware" continual checking if they are questioning their gender or suffering the pressure of exams ...

Ian

[Vorpal]

How does your club's Facebook page cope with the fluid nature of gender where a person can identify as a women one day and a man the next?

Gender isn't fluid it's fixed by chromosomes which, currently at least, can't be changed.

Very plus 1.

I think that you will find that science disagrees. Chromosomes may define which sexual organs a person has, but that isn't the whole picture. And it is grossly unfair to a person whose hormones or brain don't align with their sexual organs. Also, there are many people who have sexual organs that don't neatly fit the idea of 'man' and 'woman'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/ ... 94820.html
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magaz ... -identity/
http://www.sciencealert.com/brain-gende ... ch-reveals

When people who don't fit into your idea of man & woman, how do you think they feel? Especially if they are told (and they often are) that they are wrong to feel that way. That they have to conform to someone else's ideas?

Why do you think that suicide rates are high among transgender people and those who struggle with gender identification.

[Psamathe]

Gender isn't fluid it's fixed by chromosomes which, currently at least, can't be changed.

Very plus 1.

I think that you will find that science disagrees. Chromosomes may define which sexual organs a person has, but that isn't the whole picture. And it is grossly unfair to a person whose hormones or brain don't align with their sexual organs. Also, there are many people who have sexual organs that don't neatly fit the idea of 'man' and 'woman'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/ ... 94820.html
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magaz ... -identity/
http://www.sciencealert.com/brain-gende ... ch-reveals

When people who don't fit into your idea of man & woman, how do you think they feel? Especially if they are told (and they often are) that they are wrong to feel that way. That they have to conform to someone else's ideas?

Why do you think that suicide rates are high among transgender people and those who struggle with gender identification.

I think there is confusion over use of language in some of the comments here. Sex is determined by chromosomes. Gender relates more to the societal and social roles, how people regard themselves, etc. At least that is my understanding of the distinction.

I suspect people are using the terms interchangeably and hence some confusion about what people mean (or talking cross purposes).

Ian

[landsurfer]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/ ... 94820.html
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magaz ... -identity/
http://www.sciencealert.com/brain-gende ... ch-reveals

When people who don't fit into your idea of man & woman, how do you think they feel? Especially if they are told (and they often are) that they are wrong to feel that way. That they have to conform to someone else's ideas?

Why do you think that suicide rates are high among transgender people and those who struggle with gender identification.

Vorpal, instead of providing links to periodicals and reports share with us your personal family experience of a child who has struggled with gender identity.
My wife and i have lived with and raised a child troubled with gender identity for over 20 years.
At the end of a complicated, and frankly punishing, period of our life Ja-Ja is happy.
But the collateral damage to friends, family and especially to my wife and Ja-Ja has been traumatic in the extreme...
We know how people feel, what they are told and the danger of conforming, and we have all lost friends and acquaintances to suicide during this process.

And our experiences led to the +1 ......

[Vorpal]

Vorpal, instead of providing links to periodicals and reports share with us your personal family experience of a child who has struggled with gender identity.

Because it's not something I want to talk about, even in anonymity of the internet.

[landsurfer]

Vorpal, instead of providing links to periodicals and reports share with us your personal family experience of a child who has struggled with gender identity.

Because it's not something I want to talk about, even in anonymity of the internet.

My genuine apologies ..... should have have just left it ....

[Vorpal]

Vorpal, instead of providing links to periodicals and reports share with us your personal family experience of a child who has struggled with gender identity.

Because it's not something I want to talk about, even in anonymity of the internet.

My genuine apologies ..... should have have just left it ....

Apology accepted.

[mjr]

I remember my school days as we were under a lot of pressure, exams after exams, revision for mocks, pressure to do more, do better in these exams that would determine the rest of our lives ... and we just knuckled down and got on with it not understanding there was even such a thing as "suffering from stress" (because nobody told us about it and never suggested we might suffer from it).

I certainly don't mean to belittle those who genuinely feel neither male nor female, and similarly, no intention to dismiss those school children who genuinely are suffering stress. But I do question the increase in such things corresponding to the "socially aware" continual checking if they are questioning their gender or suffering the pressure of exams ...

Maybe you "just knuckled down and got on with it" but plenty of children buckled under and got on with depression and nervous breakdowns and worse while feeling oh so alone because nobody told us about mental health and never suggested we might have to take care of it. The founding of Childline in 1986 and its inclusion of mental health topics was one of the greatest things ever to happen for children. I wish it had happened a couple of years earlier.

Tell you what - if you don't want "to dismiss those school children who genuinely are suffering stress," how about you stop suggesting that they're only imagining it because people are daring to talk with them about it?

Back to the OP:

I see there is a topic "womans cycling interests" but why no MANS ???????

Because some people in positions of power still think providing a ghetto is an acceptable substitute to dealing with sexism, while they don't care enough about discrimination against disabled people, LGBT+, ethnic and other minorities to do either for them.