Paypal and selling over the internet.

[Dave W]

Sorry if it's the wrong section? Back in February I sold my much modified Cannondale Hooligan over the internet. To anyone not familiar with this bike it's almost an adults BMX with a small cult following. People buy them and customise them. I bought one and turned it into a race bike. When the time came I advertised it in its modified form and someone inScotland snapped it up.I sent various photos including all the parts that came off should the owner wish to return it to its original state.
Transaction went through, PayPal took there extortionate fee and bike gets delivered new owner strips it resprays it and rebuilds it. Some time later the new owner messages me to say parts were missing i.e..gear shifters.
I told him to look at the handlebars as that's where they were. He said it was a Sram shifter and so was the rear derailleur. Correct I said that's how I received bike. He insisted it should be Shimano. Told him he had everything exactly as advertised and there was nothing more I could do.

Next thing I know he's raised a dispute, demanded over £100 and PayPal have held my money. They did send an email in all fairness which I missed until the final hour thinking it was scam mail. Had I not responded the dispute would automatically go in his favour and money would be taken.

Be very careful.

[Spinners]

Sorry to hear about that and I've learned something there - so thank you. I feel I've been a bit too trusting with PayPal lately.

[Psamathe]

I know of somebody who sold several things over time (lower cost/value) and the purchaser then claimed the parcels never arrived, eBay e-mailed seller who had SPAM filtering on, missed the "dispute" e-mail and lost the money (and there was no way several different parcels "went astray"; it was a scam relying on SPAM filtering).

Ian

[Dave W]

I'm not sure if it's even PayPal's fault. It would appear to be a loophole some people know how to exploit. The old days of 'sold as seen' don't seem to stand. I guess it costs the buyer nothing to try it on.
I might add I won the case but it's entirely at PayPal's discretion. I had proof that he'd changed the bike as he'd posted pictures over another forum so he couldn't return it in the state it was sold. He deleted everything as fast as possible and blocked messages.

[tykeboy2003]

Personally I always ask for cash on collection for something like a bike or a car etc. They can dispute the transaction till they are blue in the face then....

Conversely I prefer to pay by PayPal so that if the seller has done something naughty you can get your money back. A few of years ago I bought a Dell laptop which appeared to work perfectly when I went to collect it and I paid cash. Only when I got it home did I realise why they had told me that the charger had stopped working and they'd thrown it away; the charger socket on the laptop was broken. You could charge it by carefully jiggling the power lead - which they'd obviously done prior to me turning up - but it was totally unreliable. Lesson learned.

[AdamS]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I am with Tykeboy on this, PayPal's protection is very useful to buyers but some can abuse the system.

The best thing you can do is avoid Paypal for items being collected in person. If selling by post by Paypal it is best to be very comprehensive in documenting the details of the bike and all imperfections. It is a shame that a small minority (and it is a small minority) spoil the experience for everyone else.

The old days of 'sold as seen' don't seem to stand

Quite rightly in this context. 'Sold as seen' makes some sense in a local newspaper advert when a buyer is inspecting something before purchase. It is a meaningless phrase when buying at a distance over the internet. It is used by dodgy Ebay (etc.) sellers under the illusion that they can disclaim any responsibility for what they have sold. Ebay and Paypal completely ignore these disclaimers when deciding claims.

[Roadster]

The best thing you can do is avoid Paypal for items being collected in person.

Only trouble is, the seller must offer and cannot refuse payment by PayPal for all items listed on Ebay, regardless of whether they're collected in person. Many buyers prefer to pay by PayPal even when collecting in person because of the protection it offers them. Unfortunately, Ebay is excessively biased in favour of buyers, who are able too easily to exploit the situation to the detriment of sellers.

[AdamS]

That is true. One of the downsides of selling on Ebay. Some sellers refund the Paypal payment and insist upon cash on collection, though this could cause your buyer to think twice or even report it to Ebay.

[fastpedaller]

A problem is if it's collection only the buyer (having paid by Paypal) can turn up, collect the goods and then after some time say he's never received them.
It's then your word against his, and without a postal receipt to 'prove' he's got it he'll get his money back. I don't know how much weight a copy of sale invoice with his 'Michael Mouse' signature on it will be believed by Paypal.I have to say I'd only accept (good) cash for collected goods.

[chris_suffolk]

I tend to avoid e-bay especially when selling high value or bulky goods. Use preloved and gumtree. May take a little longer to sell, but they always do, and with no fees and cash on collection it's just less hassle. No auction though, so you need to set a price that you are happy with and that it will sell at.

[pete75]

Personally I always ask for cash on collection for something like a bike or a car etc. They can dispute the transaction till they are blue in the face then....

Conversely I prefer to pay by PayPal so that if the seller has done something naughty you can get your money back. A few of years ago I bought a Dell laptop which appeared to work perfectly when I went to collect it and I paid cash. Only when I got it home did I realise why they had told me that the charger had stopped working and they'd thrown it away; the charger socket on the laptop was broken. You could charge it by carefully jiggling the power lead - which they'd obviously done prior to me turning up - but it was totally unreliable. Lesson learned.

So why do think people who buy from you shouldn't have the level of protection you want when you buy?

[foxyrider]

Had a similar sort of thing with a frame a couple of years ago The £150 sale ended up costing me £200!

Ebay used to be biased against buyers, now it's swung entirely the other way.

The 'sold as seen' business is actually due to a change in retail law supposedly to protect buyers but IMO it's counter productive and gives scammers carte blanche in this sort of situation.

Anybody sold stuff on here? I've got several frames I'd like to rehome!

[Dave W]

You obviously lost your dispute? Was it a faulty frame?

[AdamS]

The 'sold as seen' business is actually due to a change in retail law supposedly to protect buyers but IMO it's counter productive and gives scammers carte blanche in this sort of situation.

"Sold as seen" is now an illegal restrictive clause for a trader to use. Customers have statutory rights and traders cannot negate these with T&Cs. This doesn't apply to private sales. As long as accurately described private sales are legally still pretty much a case of caveat emptor anyway. Of course this is irrelevant if Ebay and PayPal's terms hold sellers to higher standards. 'Sold as seen' has never carried any weight on distance sales (retail or private) because buyers can't inspect something until it arrives.

[tykeboy2003]

So why do think people who buy from you shouldn't have the level of protection you want when you buy?

Because I'm honest and if there was a genuine problem I'd be happy to refund the money. I've never had negative feedback for a selling transaction and the only times I have had negative feedback is in cases like the laptop I described where the seller obviously knew the problem existed, refused to refund the money and became abusive when I called him.

In cases where the items I sell are posted I accept PayPal.

Why would you do that for something like a car where the PayPal cut would be a significant lump of cash? In the days before the Internet all such private car sales would be cash in hand and no comebacks.