What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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Sweep
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Sweep »

HobbesOnTour wrote:
Bez wrote:, if I go off route it will recalculate to the shortest route to the destination - frustrating if I'm cycling a loop.

Frank

You should set it to direct "point to point" navigation, called "off road" on my etrex 20. I often wanderva bit off route to look at stuff. If you have it set up like this it will let you go awandering without recalculating, trying to call you back. No great problem to get back on route when you need to.
Sweep
Samuel D
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Samuel D »

HobbesOnTour wrote:I've had the use of a Garmin Edge Touring for the past month or so and it is unbelievably poor. Crashes regularly,

All the Edge models I’ve tried have done this. The eTrex 20 was more reliable but had its own problems (e.g. AA batteries momentarily lose contact over heavy bumps causing shut-down, unbelievably complex user interface with unintuitive features such as continuous track recording, no touchscreen so entering an address takes minutes, even slower processor, no good options for bicycle mounts, large, heavy).

HobbesOnTour wrote:… if I go off route it will recalculate to the shortest route to the destination - frustrating if I'm cycling a loop.

Sweep’s fix might work (or would it?), but alternatively: Settings > Routing Options > Recalculation > Off (or Prompted).

HobbesOnTour wrote:Given that this is a touring specific device it has really made me question the quality of Garmin products.

Nothing about it is touring-specific despite the name. It was just a way to sell the old Edge 800 hardware at a lower price point by removing a bunch of performance-orientated software features.

Garmins are among the poorest quality products I’ve used. If there was any justice in the world, the company would face some sort of backlash. The bugs prevent the advertised use and never get fixed.

However, I suspect the Wahoo devices are also far from flawless. Go in with your eyes open!
Bez
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Bez »

I had a chat session with Garmin and was told that none of their units, both cycling specific and handheld gps were compatible with uploading from a phone or tablet.


Well, it depends how you interpret it, but they're wrong ;)

Fundamentally, a phone or tablet is just a computer. If it supports USB OTG ("on the go") then it can act as a USB host, meaning that you can connect things to it and access them as mass storage devices.

If the Garmin device in question uses a MicroSD card then it's easy: you whip the card out, stick it in a card reader in the USB port, copy a GPX to the "/Garmin/NewFiles/" folder, and then pop the card back in the Garmin. Alternatively it should be possible (even on Garmins which have no SD card) to plug in the unit itself, mount it as mass storage, and copy the file in the same way.

Essentially, it's exactly what you would do with a computer. You just need a computer which can act as a USB host, and not all phones and tablets can.

I've not used one of the newer Bluetooth-enabled Garmin units but as far as I'm aware you can use a phone to get routes onto them wirelessly; it's just that you have to go via Garmin Connect. (Ugh.)

The Wahoo is certainly excellent if you use one of the apps that it integrates with. I've not tried it with routes from other sources, but as far as I'm aware it should work as you want (push the route to the app, which sends it to the phone). The potential fly in the ointment is whether you can easily get hold of the routes on the phone: eg I use RideWidthGPS for all my route planning, but I'm having to write a tool to get those routes in GPX/TCX format on the phone. Their app won't export to the filesystem (it can download routes but they're saved in a larger JSON object) and their website is essentially unusable on a small screen. Obviously with the Wahoo/RWGPS pairing this isn't an issue, but with Garmin/RWGPS it is, and with Wahoo/SomeOtherTool it may be, too. So I would consider your choice of planning tool: can you get GPXs from it on your phone. (What do you use, by the way: iOS, Android, Windows Phone…?)

Also if you're fussy about navigation I'd ponder the differences between the two. The Wahoo performs well and is very easy to read but it does lack some things that the Garmins have in terms of secondary functionality.

Interesting to hear numerous reports of buggy Tourings. I sold my 800, bought an Elemnt, then picked up a cheap Touring, so I shall see if I suffer the same issues. (And I'll do a few rides with both the Elemnt and the Touring running.)
Bez
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Bez »

Samuel D wrote:All the Edge models I’ve tried have done this.


Oddly, none of mine have :) Though I've yet to properly road-test the Touring (though I did briefly have one before buying the 800 and it didn't crash).

As far as I can recall, the functional bugs I've personally had with Edges have been limited to the following:

1. If you charge from a dynamo (fluctuating power source) while riding they eventually go a bit mad. Fixed with a reboot. Not an issue when recharging steadily from an external battery.
2. Occasional off-course notifications when I'm still firmly on-course. (The Elemnt does this too, by the way, albeit perhaps to a lesser extent but it's early days.)

Other than that my Garmin grumbles have mainly been screen legibility, map clarity, occasional misbehaviour as a mass storage unit, and battery life, I think. My main Wahoo grumbles are the lack of north-up when navigating, bugs in the phone app, inability to see detail above the 500m map scale and as far as I can tell so far an inability to provide turn notifications before the turn itself.
Samuel D
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Samuel D »

You mentioned the Edge 800, Bez. I had that one too. It was the most reliable of the lot, but it still shut down on certain parts of my rides, as if it was suffering from some sort of localised electromagnetic interference. Maybe Paris is particularly bad for this, being a big city.

It has another serious bug on long rides, I think over 400 km. Audax riders have developed workarounds.

To me, any shutting down is unacceptable. These devices are sold as being useful for navigation and track recording. If they sometimes shut down, they simply don’t work. Steve Abraham, who’s seeing how far he can ride in a year, does his rides with three Garmins, such is his lack of trust in any one of them working properly.

The Garmin displays are all quite reflective, making them hard to see in certain lighting conditions (especially because they are placed on the handlebar and reflect the bright sky). In this regard the eTrex 20 is much better. Its display can be comfortably seen without the backlight (essential to save battery life), whereas with the others you have to strain a bit. Also, because the eTrex 20 has no touchscreen, you can keep the display free of fingerprints, improving legibility.

By the way, the newer eTrex 20x has a pointless* resolution increase, but the contrast with the backlight off is distinctly lower than the eTrex 20. So I see it as a downgrade.

For maps, only Garmin’s own (and expensive) City Navigator maps are any good for auto-routing. The OSM maps are just not reliable for auto-routing. Therefore the Touring’s auto-routing is nearly useless in large urban areas (unless you buy additional maps).

For battery life, my Touring is about a third worse than the old 800. I have no idea why.

In short, if you’ve got an 800, hang onto it! Its problems are manageable.



* Or harmful, because Garmin doesn’t do resolution independence. So the already small street names, etc., just display even smaller on the eTrex 20x!
Bez
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Bez »

Yeah, there are a lot of reports of buggy Garmins of all types. Individually we're all just a sample of one :)

I don't think I went over about 350km with the 800 or an eTrex. I've gone further with the 200 and with an Android phone without problems.

Agreed that the City Navigator maps are better than OSM if you want route calculation, but frankly I've yet to come across any algorithm anywhere that produces cycling routes good enough for anything other than emergencies. Personally this doesn't bother me; others may feel differently. If you're in an area where you have a data connection then the Wahoo should give more freedom in choice of route calculator, although it's completely useless if you're out of signal.

Samuel D wrote:In short, if you’ve got an 800, hang onto it! Its problems are manageable.


I just sold my 800 with the CN maps :D I had a long-running itch to try out the Wahoo, had to scratch it.
whizzzz
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by whizzzz »

HobbesOnTour wrote:

Hi Whizzzz,
I'm looking at the Elemnt for my touring needs. It's ,for me, huge advantage over Garmin, is the ability to create & load routes without a P.C.
I'm wondering if to create a route in RidewithGPS and load it to the unit you also need a subscription to RWGPS?

Also, any other feedback appreciated!

Frank



Sorry I missed the reply, but what Bez said :-) I havent tried creating a route on my phone yet, but the rest of it is great, the navigation easy and possibly a bit beepy/noisy ( but configurable to turn the volume down I think ) on wiggly turny routes, but very impressed so far.
scottg
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by scottg »

Ride with GPS has a useful page on how to set various Garmins to follow a course
correctly. I've Touring that works correctly most of the time, the latest software
will lose the big turn arrow and 30 meter warning sometimes, but still shows the purple
course line and prompts for turns at the exact point of turn, no warning.

https://ridewithgps.com/help/garmin-edge-touring
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yutkoxpo
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by yutkoxpo »

Bez wrote:
I had a chat session with Garmin and was told that none of their units, both cycling specific and handheld gps were compatible with uploading from a phone or tablet.


Well, it depends how you interpret it, but they're wrong ;)

I love it! :D :D

Bez wrote:
Fundamentally, a phone or tablet is just a computer. If it supports USB OTG ("on the go") then it can act as a USB host, meaning that you can connect things to it and access them as mass storage devices.

If the Garmin device in question uses a MicroSD card then it's easy: you whip the card out, stick it in a card reader in the USB port, copy a GPX to the "/Garmin/NewFiles/" folder, and then pop the card back in the Garmin. Alternatively it should be possible (even on Garmins which have no SD card) to plug in the unit itself, mount it as mass storage, and copy the file in the same way.



Now that's an idea that was running through my mind before that I shelved after my contact with Garmin. I'll try that over the weekend with the Touring and see what happens.

This may be a silly question, but the USB connection on the Garmin Touring is not the mini-USB connection - to my mind that knocks the idea of a direct transfer from a phone/tablet to the Garmin?
I did look at some of the other Garmin units, but from what I see they all have the same type of cable.

By the way, the Touring is not Bluetooth compatible.


Bez wrote:
I've never really used RidewithGPS before. I've an Android phone & tablet. I live in Holland and to play around with the Touring I've used a Dutch site that uses the knooppunten for navigation. I download the GPX file, transfer to the Garmin & off I go. I also have a series of numbered signs to follow.
Generally I use maps/roadsigns or dedicated cycling routes - I've never used a gps unit for the bike before. OSMand on a tablet was my "in case of emergency" backup. But it's far from ideal in a practical sense - wind, rain, dodgy road surfaces and a tablet precariously balanced on a handlebar bag..... and I have never been able to upload a GPS file to OSMand on my tablet.
I've clocked up over 10k km this way and I think it works fine for Europe. But next year I'm off to Canada, the US and further south.
Time for an upgrade, methinks


Also if you're fussy about navigation I'd ponder the differences between the two. The Wahoo performs well and is very easy to read but it does lack some things that the Garmins have in terms of secondary functionality.


Primary functionality is the important thing for me.

Many thanks

Frank
yutkoxpo
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by yutkoxpo »

Sweep wrote:
HobbesOnTour wrote:
Bez wrote:, if I go off route it will recalculate to the shortest route to the destination - frustrating if I'm cycling a loop.

Frank

You should set it to direct "point to point" navigation, called "off road" on my etrex 20. I often wanderva bit off route to look at stuff. If you have it set up like this it will let you go awandering without recalculating, trying to call you back. No great problem to get back on route when you need to.


Thanks, Sweep.

I did change the setting to stop recalculation, but if I stayed off course for too long the thing crashed. I could still find the route line on the screen and follow that, but sometimes (and I don't know why!) it followed the route as it was planned and other times it just got me to the destination.

I generally don't use a navigation device - I prefer to wander as I go along (for me that's the joy of cycling), I'm just looking for something that will work when I need it to. The constant problems with this Touring device are very offputting.
drossall
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by drossall »

Interesting thread. I agree about different people having different criteria.

I liked my Vista HCx, and it was only when it vanished that kind family members bought me an Edge Touring Plus as a gift. The Touring is much easier for uploading tracks - just a copy process, and the 500-point limit is gone. However, the battery life really is poor - getting it round a day ride is a real struggle, and it doesn't take AAs. That means either charging it on the go, or briefly at each stop, both of which are more bother than changing AAs (and AAs in an HCx last 20 hours anyway).

The Montana (and Oregon) sound interesting, but are much more expensive, and impossible to justify (and, as I said, the Touring was a gift, so I want to use it).

The HCx, of course, turned up in due course in the bottom of a forgotten bag, so it's there as a backup :roll:
Bez
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Bez »

I wrote up my experience so far with the Wahoo. Hopefully it'll be of use to some…

https://mashing53.cyclyc.com/wahoo-navi ... or-failed/
Samuel D
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by Samuel D »

That’s a useful review, Bez.

The devices on the market prove that navigation is a hard problem to solve, but I don’t quite understand why. In this instance, for example, why would Wahoo have omitted a north-up map option? This must be trivial to code, so it must have been a deliberate decision taken by someone at the company. Presumably someone who has never used a map in their life!

Likewise, the route chevrons disappearing when you zoom out slightly. Eh?

As for getting a phone out to find where to go in that situation: I leave my phone at home on most bicycle rides. Maybe that makes me unusual.

As I sort of expected, Wahoo replaces Garmin’s glitches and idiosyncrasies with other ones. It still sounds like an interesting device, mainly (to me) for its more legible display, better battery life, and simpler operation.

I’d be grateful if you updated this thread if Wahoo ever fixes any of the four problems you list at the end.
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squeaker
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by squeaker »

Another thumbs down for Garmin from me. I'm not a habitual route follower, but when I need to I've found the Edge Touring to be unreliable ie after some hours, or at a, usually, critical point :roll: it turns itself off, resulting in much swearing and fumbling for my phone and Google maps to guide me to my destination :( From what I've read on-line I am not alone in this experience. The only upside being that I won the device in a competition :?
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yutkoxpo
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Re: What is the best Garmin or GPS (not smart phone) for touring

Post by yutkoxpo »

Hi All,

I wanted to come back with an update.

Well, I got my hands on a Wahoo Elemnt (not the Bolt, but I understand they both use the same software).

Have to say that I'm very, very impressed with the unit and the company.

Baz's review is spot on. Easy to see screen. Battery life good. Easy to follow routes.

But for me, best of all is the ability to create an offline route using OSMand app on the phone and transfer to app and from there to the unit.

Currently, wifi/internet is required to transfer the route into the app, not to the unit (That's done through Bluetooth), but Wahoo have assured me that this will be rectified in the future to allow the whole process to happen offline!

For me, that is the holy grail.

No need for a computer. No need for internet. Offline maps and I'm good to go.

I know the Garmin touring will allow me to do the same on the unit, but I really have no faith in that unit. It has crashed so many times. Plus, it's bloody hard to read at a glance. And the Elemnt allows me to plot my own exact course.

Many thanks to all who contributed here. Much appreciated!

Frank
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