Railway stations; electronic barriers

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
gbnz
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Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby gbnz » 13 Oct 2017, 7:55am

Does anyone know whether electronic exit barriers are selectively being removed at East Coast mainline stations?

I'm aware that they were still in place at Darlington back in August. But even the larger stations such as Edinburgh and one or two others seem to have removed them.

In particular, is it true that the barriers have been removed from Durham station? If true it'll enable the return of buying a ticket to a far away destination at a fraction of the price of closer stations and then jumping off early! (Nb. Obviously using a cross country service, so pedantic staff don't prevent the removal of the bike from a HST carriage)

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 13 Oct 2017, 8:32am

Yep: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/du ... ed.149325/

Ticket barriers seem to be here today, gone tomorrow on the East Coast. I remember living near Peterborough in the 80s when the "Open Station" concept was introduced (removing a manual barrier with a little red booth) then reversed again in the 90s.
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AdamS
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby AdamS » 13 Oct 2017, 1:21pm

gbnz wrote:In particular, is it true that the barriers have been removed from Durham station? If true it'll enable the return of buying a ticket to a far away destination at a fraction of the price of closer stations and then jumping off early! (Nb. Obviously using a cross country service, so pedantic staff don't prevent the removal of the bike from a HST carriage)

Barriers shouldn't prevent you from doing something your ticket allows. If teh barriers do kick up a fuss about something just show your valid ticket to the staff at the barriers and they will let you through.

You are allowed to "break your journey" by getting off at an earlier stop on most Off Peak tickets and all Anytime tickets, so the booking office will happily book you a cycle reservation to Durham on a ticket that allows travel beyond Durham.

Alighting early on Advance tickets is illegal and can land you with (in order of decreasing likeliness) a big fine, prosecution, and a criminal record. Not a good idea.

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Sweep
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby Sweep » 13 Oct 2017, 3:31pm

AdamS wrote:
gbnz wrote:
Alighting early on Advance tickets is illegal and can land you with (in order of decreasing likeliness) a big fine, prosecution, and a criminal recorda.

And that shows how totally bonkers the british rail system/market is.
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kwackers
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby kwackers » 13 Oct 2017, 3:53pm

Sweep wrote:
AdamS wrote:
gbnz wrote:
Alighting early on Advance tickets is illegal and can land you with (in order of decreasing likeliness) a big fine, prosecution, and a criminal recorda.

And that shows how totally bonkers the british rail system/market is.

Yep.
My missus got off a train early and they weren't going to let her through the barrier. The only reason they relented was because it was a two hour wait for the next one (and her lift was sat outside).
Absolutely barking.

gloomyandy
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby gloomyandy » 13 Oct 2017, 4:52pm

AdamS wrote:Alighting early on Advance tickets is illegal and can land you with (in order of decreasing likeliness) a big fine, prosecution, and a criminal record. Not a good idea.


Is it really illegal (I honestly don't know)? If it is can anyone give the background of how it has become so? Why would a government pass a law to prevent someone getting off a train at a station? Has anyone ever been charged and convicted of the offence? Seems totally mad to me!

LollyKat
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby LollyKat » 13 Oct 2017, 6:03pm

The Advance tickets are special cheap deals between specific stations and have with various restriction, e.g. you can change your booking for a £10 admin fee but you can't get a refund if you don't travel at all. Alighting early is considered fare-dodging and people do get fined.

gbnz
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby gbnz » 13 Oct 2017, 8:07pm

LollyKat wrote: Alighting early is considered fare-dodging and people do get fined.


The electronic barriers stopped this, as the risk became too high.

But I have noted that only one station I routinely use on the East Coast Mainline is still using the barriers, which opens up the possibility of buying a ticket to a cheap, undesired location and getting off early with little chance of being caught out :wink:. Obviously it'd be a huge advantage of using a cross country train, as myself and bike could jump off and head off, with little chance of being caught :| (HST bike carrying carriages would be more of an issue)
Last edited by gbnz on 13 Oct 2017, 9:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

gbnz
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby gbnz » 13 Oct 2017, 8:14pm

AdamS wrote:
gbnz wrote:In particular, is it true that the barriers have been removed from Durham station? If true it'll enable the return of buying a ticket to a far away destination at a fraction of the price of closer stations and then jumping off early! (Nb. Obviously using a cross country service, so pedantic staff don't prevent the removal of the bike from a HST carriage)

Barriers shouldn't prevent you from doing something your ticket allows. If teh barriers do kick up a fuss about something just show your valid ticket to the staff at the barriers and they will let you through.

You are allowed to "break your journey" by getting off at an earlier stop on most Off Peak tickets and all Anytime tickets, so the booking office will happily book you a cycle reservation to Durham on a ticket that allows travel beyond Durham.

Alighting early on Advance tickets is illegal and can land you with (in order of decreasing likeliness) a big fine, prosecution, and a criminal record. Not a good idea.


Have to admit I was stopped in 1992. Sunday evening, only one station down the line and so a "alright mate, no probs" was the response.

I'm aware railway legislation differs from the rule, so although with most industries it'd a be a contractual issue, I suppose it could be a statutory offence on the railways. Worth having a look at

AdamS
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby AdamS » 13 Oct 2017, 8:24pm

gbnz is quite right, there are lots of laws and byelaws regulating the railways. Without going into lots of detail the offences are general ones about travelling without a valid ticket and trying to avoid paying the legitimate fare. Prosecutions are rare because people caught doing this are usually given the oppportunity to pay a fine and/or the full standard fare for the journey they made. Almost everybody prefers to pay that than end up in court where costs can be much higher.

gbnz
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby gbnz » 13 Oct 2017, 9:02pm

AdamS wrote:gbnz is quite right, there are lots of laws and byelaws regulating the railways..... trying to avoid paying the legitimate fare. Prosecutions are rare because people caught doing this are usually given the oppportunity to pay a fine and/or the full standard fare for the journey they made.


The current "National Rail Conditions of Carriage", clearly indicate that alighting early from a train on an Advance Ticket is a contractual issue, not a statutory offence (I.e. Not criminal). I'd be surprised if TOC's have implemented or would enforce byelaws contrary to the NRCC.

It appears that while Sections 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35, 39 could be said to apply, Section 16, paragraph 2 is the only one of significance;

"If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used".

It would appear that Penalty Fares and/or prosecution would appear unlikely, while criminal charges would not apply.

Of course I wouldn't want to commit a contractual offence, though it'd be nice to dream of alighting early :|

AdamS
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby AdamS » 13 Oct 2017, 10:47pm

The NRCOC doesn't mention any offences, but that doesn't mean there aren't any fare dodging offences. The NRCOC applies in addition to the bylaws (Section 1 of the NRCOC) and more generally the law of the land including the various railway acts. If you travel without a ticket (for example) you are certainly required under the NRCOC to pay the full single or return fare or a penalty fare, but you can additionally be prosecuted. It is not particularly common and often not the first resort but it does happen regularly.

Of course I wouldn't want to commit a contractual offence, though it'd be nice to dream of alighting early :|

You could buy a more flexible ticket which allows breaks of journeys and alight and reboard at as many stops en route as you like :)

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Sweep
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby Sweep » 14 Oct 2017, 5:25am

AdamS wrote:You could buy a more flexible ticket which allows breaks of journeys and alight and reboard at as many stops en route as you like :)

If you want to talk barmy/bonkers, look at the price of some of those things. Prices to make foreigners think they have entered a parallel universe. I could if i was mad enough pay over £200 for a journey i often make.
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gbnz
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby gbnz » 14 Oct 2017, 7:49am

Sweep wrote: if i was mad enough pay over £200 for a journey i often make.


My view exactly! Given that I can buy a ticket, last minute, at a cost of £7.10 to alight part way through the journey at a station 30 miles closer to home (When a ticket for that station closer to home booked weeks in advance would cost me £20-40 more), it would seem MAD to buy the more expensive tickets.

The risk of a £12.90-27.10 surcharge is irrelevant compared to the additional £35230.00 I'd be paying over the next 25 years to do that journey on an anytime ticket!

At the end of the day, it isn't a statutory offence, it doesn't incur penalty charges and it's not as if I'd be travelling without a ticket (Nb. merely getting off the train a station early)
Last edited by gbnz on 14 Oct 2017, 8:21am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sweep
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Re: Railway stations; electronic barriers

Postby Sweep » 14 Oct 2017, 8:09am

Interesting - that is bonkers - didn't realise that advance tickets could be more.

I was referring to a journey which could cost me over £200 if turn up and go or flexi which on a nominated train booked ahead I can get for about a tenth of that price.

Though it does involve masses of my time to book the thing thanks to East and West Coasts' broken bike booking.

I should stress that I am not in favour of fare dodging, as in pretending to have started your journey at a station you haven't

Making a shorter journey than you have actually legitimately paid for doesn't strike me as fare dodging, just sticking two fingers to the marketing wonks.
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