Frame written off in crash - what now?

[JamesE]

I got rear-ended by a car a week ago and the bike shop have just declared my frame to be a writeoff, along with the rear wheel, mudguard, rack and a couple of other bits and bobs. Most of the rest is sound and ideally I want a new frame to transfer all the old bits onto, as it's all stuff I've tinkered with and handpicked over the years and is basically my perfect touring setup. The driver was insured and I have his details, but I'm not sure what to ask from the insurers.

The problem is that my frame is an 80s/early 90s Raleigh Royal that I bought on eBay and had resprayed by Mercian, at a total cost of somewhere around £300. Finding another one could take months. I don't really want an off-the-peg bike to replace it either, so I'll probably ask the insurers for a lump sum that covers a frame plus the cost of replacement parts and a rebuild by my LBS. So do I:

1) value the frame at £300?

2) value the frame at the cost of the closest like-for-like replacement for a handbuilt lugged frame, which would probably have to be something expensive from Mercian or similar?

3) value the frame at the cost of a popular off-the-peg touring frame like a Surly or Spa?

4) Ask the insurers for the cash cost of a similar replacement bike, like a Spa tourer, and use that money to rebuild my bike the way I want it?

All thoughts and personal experiences welcome...

[nirakaro]

I'd have thought you'd be wise to choose the most expensive of those options, and then be prepared to negotiate.

[simonhill]

Are you in CycleUK? They have a legal advice section, I think. They can probably advise you how to proceed. You're looking at a "is it a new for old situation?".

Otherwise it may be worth asking an Insurance broker for their advice (ie just pop into a brokers office/shop).

[meic]

The insurance company will attempt to dictate their terms to you. You must remember that you do not have to accept them as the arbitrators. In the end you go to court if they do not offer a fair amount, the court may not agree with either of you but it is the court that can decides not you or the insurance company (if you cant agree between yourselves).
I was told by a car insurance company (after my car was crashed into) that the courts will pretty much enforce the insurance companies practice of giving "the book price", I dont know if that is true or not.

The courts have a policy that you do not end up better off and when combined with very low "book" prices for old bikes things generally dont work out well for those of us with beloved old gems that havent got some sort of valuation as a classic, sought after example etc.

[drossall]

Surely the insurers (and the courts) will want an independent valuation? The idea is to put you back to where you were before the accident. So, the valuation will typically come from a shop of your choice.

You can probably brief the shop that you don't consider a modern bike an adequate replacement. However, they'd be obliged to use the cheapest of your options. I doubt you could argue that a hand-built Mercian was a fair replacement for a Raleigh, which is a nice frame but definitely off the peg.

These days, many insurers will try to buy you a new bike from the supplier of their choice. I'd like to see them try that with their driving customers: "Sorry mate, it's got to be a Vauxhall", or whatever.

[JamesE]

You can probably brief the shop that you don't consider a modern bike an adequate replacement. However, they'd be obliged to use the cheapest of your options. I doubt you could argue that a hand-built Mercian was a fair replacement for a Raleigh, which is a nice frame but definitely off the peg.

Well this is the problem - my LBS are being as helpful as they can but I think they'd rather sell me a decent off-the-peg Trek or Specialized (for which they are a dealer) than actually help me back onto the bike I want. Not their fault, I just don't think they're used to dealing with cases like this. I'm leaning towards asking the insurer for the full cash price I paid for the frame (plus the cost of a build/replacement parts for those broken in the crash), and putting it towards an upgrade to a Mercian or Bob Jackson. If anyone has a better idea, or knows why this is daft legally speaking, please speak up...

(I'm a member of London Cycling Campaign so will phone them, see what they say, and report back here).

[MarcusT]

I think you may have a conflict in what you value the frame and the insurance company. Be sure to have many sources to back your estimate up. All they will see is a 30 yr old bike.

[9494arnold]

If it makes you feel better, my LBS did me a very good estimate of repair on a Raleigh SDC some years ago (raleighs Special Projects Bikes) when someone pulled in front of me and sent me across the bonnett. Frame was a write off. Don't forget any damage to your clothes!.
Submitted estimates to insurers.
As they say, insurance assesors came out to look at the wreckage, first words out of the assesors mouth:
"have you already had it repaired?" (front wheel was overlapping the down tube by about 3 inches) .
Claim Paid in full.
If LBS can't come up with the goods, is there anyone close to you who builds frames,try them.
You might have to pay a small fee for the assesment and report .
And if they quibble about the fact it's an "old" frame, remind them how popular old frames are : "L Eroica" Veteran Cycle Club Etc Etc , E bay (there's currently a 1937 Bates on e bay , it's shabby but eminently useable,it's only £1500.00 )

And if I dare use a Motor Car Analogy , a Vintage Rolls Royce is worth a bit more than a 2 year old Daihatsu.

[pwa]

Claim for whiplash. Only half joking. My son had a car written off by a pick-up truck driving into the back of him when he stopped to give way to oncoming traffic on a narrow Carmarthenshire road. The money he got from the insurers did not fully cover the cost of a replacement. But he had (genuinely) a sore neck for a couple of weeks. The insurers gave his details to an ambulance chasing legal outfit who got him about £3000 in compensation (net). That made up for the deficit, and a bit extra for hassle. I know it is morally dubious to claim for injuries without real harm having been done, but it does equal things out sometimes.

[TrevA]

Claim for whiplash. Only half joking. My son had a car written off by a pick-up truck driving into the back of him when he stopped to give way to oncoming traffic on a narrow Carmarthenshire road. The money he got from the insurers did not fully cover the cost of a replacement. But he had (genuinely) a sore neck for a couple of weeks. The insurers gave his details to an ambulance chasing legal outfit who got him about £3000 in compensation (net). That made up for the deficit, and a bit extra for hassle. I know it is morally dubious to claim for injuries without real harm having been done, but it does equal things out sometimes.

You are allowed to claim for "pain and suffering" as a result of an accident. My son was knocked off, sustained minimal damage to his bike and a deep cut to his elbow. He eventually received £1500 in compensation.

[pwa]

Claim for whiplash. Only half joking. My son had a car written off by a pick-up truck driving into the back of him when he stopped to give way to oncoming traffic on a narrow Carmarthenshire road. The money he got from the insurers did not fully cover the cost of a replacement. But he had (genuinely) a sore neck for a couple of weeks. The insurers gave his details to an ambulance chasing legal outfit who got him about £3000 in compensation (net). That made up for the deficit, and a bit extra for hassle. I know it is morally dubious to claim for injuries without real harm having been done, but it does equal things out sometimes.

You are allowed to claim for "pain and suffering" as a result of an accident. My son was knocked off, sustained minimal damage to his bike and a deep cut to his elbow. He eventually received £1500 in compensation.

Yes. In my son's case he saw his compensation as a lot of money for not much pain, but it made up for not getting what he needed to replace his car with a true equivalent. So justice by a back door.

[amediasatex]

Get a quote from a framebuilder (Mercian, BJ, Argos, whoever...) for repairing the frame to original condition. ie: new back end and paint. After all that's a valid repair to put you back in the position you were before the incident and they'd have a hard time arguing against that.

The only other option would be to replace like with like, and since your bike is no longer made then it adds weight to the repair option. They wouldn't offer a new replacement for a classic car would they? And if they insist on 'book price' for replacement frame make sure you stress the difficulty in locating/time to source an equivalent frame, and renovations to the same standard.

However, having said all that I doub't you'll get much argument from the insurance company if you are form in your request. Replacing posh bikes is still a fairly small cost compared to bodywork+injury on a car collision.

[PH]

Get a quote from a framebuilder (Mercian, BJ, Argos, whoever...) for repairing the frame to original condition. ie: new back end and paint. After all that's a valid repair to put you back in the position you were before the incident and they'd have a hard time arguing against that.

That would be my course of action, get a quote from someone who can put you back in a position you were prior to the incident. If the insurers want to negotiate the value, let them do it with them rather than you. This happened with my Hewitt, TBH in that case I'd rather of had the cash equivalent, but the insurers paid for the repair direct and the bike was put back into the same condition (Though a bit cleaner!)
As mentioned upthread it'd be worth contacting Cycling UKs Accident Helpline if you're a member, they may be able to offer you advice. But to get legal representation that you can claim back, the injury element of the claim would need to exceed £1,000 or the overall claim £5,000 (These limits are going up to £5,000 and £10,000, but I don't think it's till next year)

[Vorpal]

You should expect to be put in the same state you were in prior to the accident.

From the insurance company's perspective, a write-off is just that. They treat them the same as if it were a car. They would not expect you to dissassemble a car and reuse some of the bits. Nor will they with a bicycle. They can demand that you give them the bicycle, but they seldom do so.

List all the components and their values, and include that in your valuation. The reuse of some components can then be a bargaining lever to obtain a frame at a lower cost (to them) than replacing the whole bicycle with all it's specialist components.

The hard part is going to be convincing them of the special value of an old bicycle. They will likely offer you a very low initial amount, and then apply pressure on you to take it.

[Vorpal]

It may also be worth mentioning additional costs, such as car use, bus or train fare when you did not have your bicycle.