Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

[thirdcrank]

Some local authorities have an excellent dog warden service but I fear it's just the sort of thing that's vulnerable to cuts. During my time working in Bradford, the service there was brilliant. The (chief?) dog warden - Terry Singh - was well-known locally and further afield. Part of the reason for the priority given to this issue in Bradford was the prolonged dog attack on a little girl girl playing out - Ruksana Khan - which caused severe facial injuries. I vividly remember watching a tv news interview with the several men who struggled for some time to get the dog to release its grip on her face.

I'd not claim any special expertise in dealing with dogs and I certainly never received any training in how to do so; so speaking only for myself, I'd happily admit to being "a waste of time" in this connection.

IMO, There's also a mismatch between reality and a bourgeois interpretation.

[Tangled Metal]

Tangled Metal

The real trick is to manage one of those methods while you are riding a bike. Or when you are with a child in a pushchair. Or judging by the most recent changes to the legislation, if you are blind and relying on a dog which has been selected and trained to be unaggressive.

Quite! Which was why I only quoted the Lofty Wiseman interview comments on how to deal with dog attacks as a throw away comment that kind of follows on from the quote of Ballantyne a few threads up.

Interestingly I seem to recall the Lofty Wiseman comments in my the interview came about because of dog attacks being in the news at the time. Another case of a young child getting injured or killed by whatever devil dog breed was demon of the time.

It's often the case that reaction by police and dog control happens after a violent dog attack not before it after warning signs. How many dogs (probably through bad ownership) give plenty of signs of high risk before they actually attack? How many opportunities for a safe resolution before an attack?

BTW is heard experts in dog behaviour and training say there is no such thing as a dog being born dangerous. It is the owners who create the danger through their lack of knowledge or just not caring enough to do the right thing by the dog. That is why every dangerous dog that is quite rightly put down is a kind of disaster. It needn't have happened. I wonder how things would change if the owner of a dangerous dog got put down with the dog?! Not advocating it but the owner is a danger too and one quite often free to own other dogs later on.

BTW I remember that Bradford girl's name and the incident. Wasn't it the time the dangerous dogs act for rushed through?

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Hi,
Police say see dog warden..................Dog warden says see police....................

Perhaps more joy with dog warden as they are definitely under worked.

I think there is truth in your first statement!
I sent an email to the District Council requesting how to report a dangerous dog (as there was only a 'report a lost dog, or stray dog' on their website).
They have advised me to call the Police on 101 (which I did yesterday). Ho Hum. I think my best move if I observe these dogs loose again is to immediately call 999, as instructed by the Police yesterday. If they are unwilling to act then I'll have to raise a complaint based on the evidence of the advise I was given yesterday.

OTOH Cherwell seems very joined up between the two.

We had a terrible incident in which one of our dogs was attacked and their response was excellent, including a blues & twos rush to the vets with the poor dog, plus some "unofficial" advice on how to couch my evidence when they located the dog, his owner and the two young girls who were with it.

Sadly, they have never found the dog.

Nice story but tax payers would question use of police resources.
Then this story gets into media and is a publicity stunt used by police to make them more popular....seeing more and more stories like this on TV with reconstructions.
Why should there be a postcode lottery on level of service from police.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -earn.html
"Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, who leads the biggest police force in England and Wales, received the highest pay package, including pension contributions, in 2012/13 at £281,273"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ement.html
"£375,000 extra pension by getting a promotion TWO MONTHS before he was due to retire
Chief Superintendent Clive Burgess was earning £74,000 a year
The 48-year-old was set to retire from West Midlands Police after 30 years
But he was given a £20,000 salary hike weeks before he was due to leave
Move was criticised as the force faces cuts of almost £150million "

Serving or self serving..............

[Cyril Haearn]

What do they do with so much money?

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

The desired result is to repel the dog attacking you however playful it might appear to be as even a playful dog can cause a rider to fall,vinegar in a bidon works as we found out with Portugese dogs which tend to hang around in packs of four to six in villages there,a stoker with a good aim helps too
Carrying pepper spray or similar it illegal in the UK I believe,vinegar isn't and even diluted a little with water still packs a punch and has the desired effect.
I do not wish to get to the stage where I'm man handling a dog,it ain't health.

Vinegar is an acid, acetic,

[reohn2]

Hi,

The desired result is to repel the dog attacking you however playful it might appear to be as even a playful dog can cause a rider to fall,vinegar in a bidon works as we found out with Portugese dogs which tend to hang around in packs of four to six in villages there,a stoker with a good aim helps too
Carrying pepper spray or similar it illegal in the UK I believe,vinegar isn't and even diluted a little with water still packs a punch and has the desired effect.
I do not wish to get to the stage where I'm man handling a dog,it ain't health.

Vinegar is an acid, acetic,

Yep that'll be right

[AlaninWales]

So people are suggesting putting a corrosive* acid in a container with intent to spray it? In the light of the recent publicity regarding acid attacks, how do you intend to plea if this is found on you. New laws are under consideration to prevent people carrying harmful chemicals with intent to throw them at or spray them on people, but I believe the "Offences Against the Person Act 1861" would be sufficient:

24 Maliciously administering poison, &c. with intent to injure, aggrieve, or annoy any other person.

Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously administer to or cause to be administered to or taken by any other person any poison or other destructive or noxious thing, with intent to injure, aggrieve, or annoy such person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor,

Whilst vinegar is unlikely to permanently injure a person (although it could if strong enough), it would certainly "aggrieve or annoy". "It's for self defence against dog attack" is not (IMO) likely to be seen as a reasonable defence against such a charge.


*Yes, it's corrosive: Try putting it on a piece of iron and watch the effect.

[meic]

"It's for self defence against dog attack" is not (IMO) likely to be seen as a reasonable defence against such a charge.

Yet it is being suggested for exactly that purpose, deterring dogs. Far more reasonable than suggesting it is to cause minor irritation to people or even in case you fancy having some chips.
Also the law says you have to administer it (to a person), not just carry it, in order to break the law.

[Cyril Haearn]

The department store in town stinks of perfume, perfectly disgusting

Could one use concentrated perfume against the four-legged monsters?

Might be a bit expensive mind, but dogs can smell very well. Surely there are smells that drive them mad, creosote or gear oil maybe?

(Drive them mad so they run off I mean)

[IanA]

Another experience of a dog attack and the police response - hopefully not to rambling.

A route that we frequently used on the tandem went along a hedge/fence where a farm dog, a black Labrador, would bark and run along the inside of the field after us, but stop when it reached the farm gate. However, on one occasion earlier this year it started the barking and ran ahead of us, coming out of the entrance and back along the road towards us, biting my leg before then running back into the field and farm. I managed to stay on and came to a stop in the gate entrance. It was a proper bite with 3 fairly deep teeth punctures and while attending to this the farmer turned up on a tractor. The usual story, never done that before etc etc and he will go and lock it up. I pointed out that I wasn't worried now, as it had already gone, but that I was more concerned whether it would be able to get out and attack us the next time we passed. Having only recently embraced the smart phone, photographs were then taken of the leg in the farm entrance, with farm sign in the background.

Over the next few days I considered whether to report it to the police, eventually deciding that having spoken to the farmer and him having seen the injury caused by his dog, he would take the hint and control it better.

A few weeks/months later my wife was talking to a cycling group in the market square of our town where they were promoting local routes. It became evident that they had also recently been harassed by the same dog in the same way, but fortunately not actually been injured. The farmer had clearly not taken the hint so I thought a complaint was appropriate as it was clearly becoming a serial offender. I sent an e-mail to the police station most local to the farm explaining the situation, included photographs and explaining in the nicest possible way that we considered it to be dangerous in accordance with the definition of a dangerous dog indicated in the .gov website (noted in an earlier post). In the next day or so we received a phone call from a community police officer who was very helpful and said he would follow it up with a visit and get back to us. A few days later we received a message that he had tried to contact the owner but he was out, but he would keep trying. We missed a final call but had a message explaining he had spoken to the farmer and that he had been assured the dog would be kept under better control. I thought the reaction of the owner was a bit weak but as there are other equally convenient routes in the area we haven't been back to test it. We have also both now become particularly nervous of dogs after 2 further incidents in one day with packs of stray/wild dogs while on the tandem in Sicily.

My thoughts on lessons learnt in reporting to the police: by sending an e-mail they have a written record that they have to react to and perhaps importantly you also have a record of reporting it. An appropriate level officer can also give due consideration as to how they are going to react rather than just the telephone operator thinking on their feet. Photographs are clear evidence identifying the place and if appropriate the injury, and perhaps hopefully the dog. By including information as to what you understand the definition of a dangerous dog is in law confirms you have done you homework and are not just a time waster. Should it happen again, by having sent an e-mail they, and importantly you, have a clear history of reports.

In this case I think the police reacted to and handled the complaint very well but, as noted above, we haven't yet tested out the effectiveness of the response.

[reohn2]

So people are suggesting putting a corrosive* acid in a container with intent to spray it? In the light of the recent publicity regarding acid attacks, how do you intend to plea if this is found on you. New laws are under consideration to prevent people carrying harmful chemicals with intent to throw them at or spray them on people, but I believe the "Offences Against the Person Act 1861" would be sufficient:

24 Maliciously administering poison, &c. with intent to injure, aggrieve, or annoy any other person.

Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously administer to or cause to be administered to or taken by any other person any poison or other destructive or noxious thing, with intent to injure, aggrieve, or annoy such person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor,

Whilst vinegar is unlikely to permanently injure a person (although it could if strong enough), it would certainly "aggrieve or annoy". "It's for self defence against dog attack" is not (IMO) likely to be seen as a reasonable defence against such a charge.

The dog that seeks to do me harm will get sprayed with it,it's a deterrent with no lasting effects,especially if diluted slightly with a little water.

*Yes, it's corrosive: Try putting it on a piece of iron and watch the effect.

Yet most people slather it on their food


Thinks.... ....perhaps a handful of salt n pepper would have the same effect or is that not preferred to a dog bite or injury caused by an over enthusiastic playful mutt?

BTH I like dogs but their place within UK society is completely out of all proportion,their mess is on practically every street corner,their owners allow them off their long and stretchy leads where they shouldn't especially where there are children,increasingly farmers are complaining bitterly about their effect on livestock.
Yet say so much as a word about a dog's behaviour to their all too thick and stupid owner and your met with a hail of abuse
PS,we look after are youngest daughter's well behaved Labrador on a regular basis,and up until my early twenties I had two Labrador dogs trained for the gun,so I'm no stranger to dogs or some of the stupid insane behaviour of them when left untrained or worse still the one's trained to be agressive,which is an increasing occurrence IME

[Bonefishblues]

Hi,

I think there is truth in your first statement!
I sent an email to the District Council requesting how to report a dangerous dog (as there was only a 'report a lost dog, or stray dog' on their website).
They have advised me to call the Police on 101 (which I did yesterday). Ho Hum. I think my best move if I observe these dogs loose again is to immediately call 999, as instructed by the Police yesterday. If they are unwilling to act then I'll have to raise a complaint based on the evidence of the advise I was given yesterday.

OTOH Cherwell seems very joined up between the two.

We had a terrible incident in which one of our dogs was attacked and their response was excellent, including a blues & twos rush to the vets with the poor dog, plus some "unofficial" advice on how to couch my evidence when they located the dog, his owner and the two young girls who were with it.

Sadly, they have never found the dog.

Nice story but tax payers would question use of police resources.
Then this story gets into media and is a publicity stunt used by police to make them more popular....seeing more and more stories like this on TV with reconstructions.
[/i]"

Serving or self serving..............

A half story. Do you want the rest, in all its gory detail or shall we leave it at that?

No police resources were wasted that day. No capital was made of the incident.

ETA
I was making the point, and it's worth repeating, that in this area both Police and Wardens are very clear and joined-up in respect of their roles - I've seen it in action, and had follow up conversations with both parties. It's good to see, very positive, and might usefully be replicated elsewhere, by the sound of it.

[AlaninWales]

Yes reohn2, people slather it on their food, as they do pepper. Carry either pepper or vinegar in a way that could be used to spray into people's eyes and it is a weapon.
Meic, carrying a material that causes pain when sprayed, in a way that it is available to spray into someone's face, is carrying a weapon.

If either of you are happy to face a police interview with "But I am only carrying it to defend against dogs. No of course I wouldn't be using it to mug someone" then I will wish you luck. Maybe the 'attitude test' would mean you go free, but preparing any self-defence weapon is bad advice to give in UK. I know of someone prosecuted for carrying a ruler - because he said the purpose was self defence.

Vinegar, pepper, lemon juice - all 'innocuous' substances, all have been used as weapons and if you carry them as such there is no 'self' defence getout clause in UK law.

[reohn2]

Yes reohn2, people slather it on their food, as they do pepper. Carry either pepper or vinegar in a way that could be used to spray into people's eyes and it is a weapon.
Meic, carrying a material that causes pain when sprayed, in a way that it is available to spray into someone's face, is carrying a weapon.

If either of you are happy to face a police interview with "But I am only carrying it to defend against dogs. No of course I wouldn't be using it to mug someone" then I will wish you luck. Maybe the 'attitude test' would mean you go free, but preparing any self-defence weapon is bad advice to give in UK. I know of someone prosecuted for carrying a ruler - because he said the purpose was self defence.

Vinegar, pepper, lemon juice - all 'innocuous' substances, all have been used as weapons and if you carry them as such there is no 'self' defence getout clause in UK law.

If I were having the problems the OP was in the UK or like the problems we had in Portugal with dogs I'd take my chances.YVMV

[meic]

Meic, carrying a material that causes pain when sprayed, in a way that it is available to spray into someone's face, is carrying a weapon.

If it isnt specifically classified as a restricted object, then intent would have to be proven to classify it as a weapon. Otherwise anything that I carry is a weapon. As it is I am allowed to carry things far more dangerous than vinegar, even with the express purpose of defending myself against animals quite legally.