Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

[Cyril Haearn]

One sees some cute little dogs, small enough to ride in a wired-in basket on ones handlebars

I had a spaniel jump on board my empty cargo trailer while riding through a park. I thought at first I'd just ridden over a bump, then heard the owners shouts from behind me, looked round and saw I had a hitch-hiker on board. Presumably he had chased after me without my noticing and jumped in when he caught up. He obeyed my instruction to get out and go back to his owner.

+1!

[Pastychomper]

This is where frame fitting pumps come in handy. You can remove it whilst riding along and give the dog a sharp tap with it, that usually does the trick and the dog will desist. If not, then I agree with using the bike as a barrier.

Staying behind the bike makes sense, but a tap with a pump looks to me like a good way to turn a curious dog into an aggressive one.

The one time I got bitten by a stranger's dog, it was a GS that belonged to a neighbour and barked every time I went along the alley by their garden. After some months the dog bit my arm and I found out afterwards that my housemate (who was in front of me on that occasion) had been bopping the dog on the nose each time he went past to "teach it respect". I probably should have bopped him on the nose and asked how respectful he felt.

Personally I have more success with jgurney's "turn to face them" method - it seems to work on most following animals, including young H. sapiens.

[fastpedaller]

Hi,
Police say see dog warden..................Dog warden says see police....................

Perhaps more joy with dog warden as they are definitely under worked.

I think there is truth in your first statement!
I sent an email to the District Council requesting how to report a dangerous dog (as there was only a 'report a lost dog, or stray dog' on their website).
They have advised me to call the Police on 101 (which I did yesterday). Ho Hum. I think my best move if I observe these dogs loose again is to immediately call 999, as instructed by the Police yesterday. If they are unwilling to act then I'll have to raise a complaint based on the evidence of the advise I was given yesterday.

[fastpedaller]

fastpedaller

I'm not sure if you were getting that off your chest or if you were looking for advice.

There have been several law changes since I had any official involvement so this is only general. As a cyclist, I've had plenty of experince of being chased and I know it's not nice.

First, it looks to me as though recent amendments to the relevant legislation create criminal offences which cover what you experienced. Much of the underlying problem, however, is one of identifying the dog(s.) This will be even more significant than under the longstanding complaint procedure which enables magistrates to order that a dog should be kept under control or destroyed because that's a civil procedure with a lower standard of proof. I'm saying that in many cases, especially those outdoors, it can be very difficult to make the evidential connection between the incident, the dog, and an owner/ person in charge. That's likely to be aggravated if the person responsible is actually irresponsible in the sense of habitually letting their mutts roam free. Also, any sort of effective enforcement is likely to attract a disproportionate response from the nation of dog lovers.

Then, it's important to appreciate that the staff of a police control room / call centre are not the people to give legal advice, even if they wrap up a refusal to deal with something in quasi-legal terms. This is becoming increasingly the case and we are now seeing this function out-sourced in some areas. In essence, all they are saying is "we aren't going to deal with this." If you are dissatisfied, I can't see much alternative to complaining in one form or another, but whatever the response, the background is what I've already posted.

As for defending yourself, so long as that's what you are doing, then I don't see a legal problem with fighting a dog with whatever comes to hand, so long as you aren't carrying an offensive weapon etc. AFAIK, injuring or even killing a dog might amount to criminal damage but self-defence would be a an excellent defence, or there might be a claim for compo if it was a valuable dog (which would be unlikely to be roaming loose.) Not everybody welcomes being investigated for something like this, even if it's never going to go anywhere. There's the risk that the type of person who does habitually let their mutts roam may take their own summary action, of course, or that the nation of dog lovers may pillory you on social media.

The only glimmer of light at the end of this gloomy tunnel is that increasing levels of motor traffic have bred out the chasing tendency in many dogs: the others have been run over.

I was very much after advice (although it does help to 'share' the experience )
It seems my best course of action is to do as the Police have advised (dial 999 if loose dogs seen again), and then raise a complaint if the Police don't respond, using their recorded evidence of their advice given in yesterday's telecon.

[Bonefishblues]

Hi,
Police say see dog warden..................Dog warden says see police....................

Perhaps more joy with dog warden as they are definitely under worked.

I think there is truth in your first statement!
I sent an email to the District Council requesting how to report a dangerous dog (as there was only a 'report a lost dog, or stray dog' on their website).
They have advised me to call the Police on 101 (which I did yesterday). Ho Hum. I think my best move if I observe these dogs loose again is to immediately call 999, as instructed by the Police yesterday. If they are unwilling to act then I'll have to raise a complaint based on the evidence of the advise I was given yesterday.

OTOH Cherwell seems very joined up between the two.

We had a terrible incident in which one of our dogs was attacked and their response was excellent, including a blues & twos rush to the vets with the poor dog, plus some "unofficial" advice on how to couch my evidence when they located the dog, his owner and the two young girls who were with it.

Sadly, they have never found the dog.

[thirdcrank]

... I was very much after advice (although it does help to 'share' the experience )
It seems my best course of action is to do as the Police have advised (dial 999 if loose dogs seen again), and then raise a complaint if the Police don't respond, using their recorded evidence of their advice given in yesterday's telecon.

I fear that there's no easy answer. Unless it's something where there really is a truly serious incident in progress, I fancy that the advice may be to report it through other, non-emergency means. ie Unless the dog has somebody cornered or something like that, it may not be appropriate to send a car miles with nee-naws going. This is presumably what caused you to ring 101 when it happened. However, as I tried to explain before, a proper investigation is unlikely to be easy unless there's immediate identification of the dog and a connection to the owner/ keeper. ie If it's not dealt with almost immediately, it is likely to become much more complicated with the passage of time. By proper investigation, I mean gathering evidence with a view to enforcement, not just going round for a chat. If something less formal like that would meet your expectation, then the local community police unit might be the route to take. If it's not an isolated incident, they may have had more complaints.

There's quite a bit online about this but meic's link looks pretty good to me and if you quote govt., advice to them, it's not so easy to fob you off.
===========================================
Edit to add. I'm generally cautious about recommending complaining but in these circumstances it may be the only way to get the result you want. I don't see much to be gained by leaving it "till next time." If you are reasonably sure of what was said to you when you rang 101, then compare that with the Govt's explanation in meic's link. If you have been told something substantially different, then it needs bringing up now. My thinking here is that if you believe what you were told was wrong based on govt advice it will still be wrong if there's a recurrence so there's not much point in depending on it being followed in future.

[Cyril Haearn]

One could carry a spray can of indelible paint

Or a pepper spray

[fastpedaller]

... I was very much after advice (although it does help to 'share' the experience )
It seems my best course of action is to do as the Police have advised (dial 999 if loose dogs seen again), and then raise a complaint if the Police don't respond, using their recorded evidence of their advice given in yesterday's telecon.

I fear that there's no easy answer. Unless it's something where there really is a truly serious incident in progress, I fancy that the advice may be to report it through other, non-emergency means. ie Unless the dog has somebody cornered or something like that, it may not be appropriate to send a car miles with nee-naws going. This is presumably what caused you to ring 101 when it happened. However, as I tried to explain before, a proper investigation is unlikely to be easy unless there's immediate identification of the dog and a connection to the owner/ keeper. ie If it's not dealt with almost immediately, it is likely to become much more complicated with the passage of time. By proper investigation, I mean gathering evidence with a view to enforcement, not just going round for a chat. If something less formal like that would meet your expectation, then the local community police unit might be the route to take. If it's not an isolated incident, they may have had more complaints.

There's quite a bit online about this but meic's link looks pretty good to me and if you quote govt., advice to them, it's not so easy to fob you off.
===========================================
Edit to add. I'm generally cautious about recommending complaining but in these circumstances it may be the only way to get the result you want. I don't see much to be gained by leaving it "till next time." If you are reasonably sure of what was said to you when you rang 101, then compare that with the Govt's explanation in meic's link. If you have been told something substantially different, then it needs bringing up now. My thinking here is that if you believe what you were told was wrong based on govt advice it will still be wrong if there's a recurrence so there's not much point in depending on it being followed in future.

My (possibly flawed) logic is that if I do as the Police advised me yesterday (ie. call 999 if dogs are loose again) I will have cause to complain if they don't appear, and will quote the 'phone conversation and incident number given yesterday. Maybe the taped conversation will then 'have been lost ' If so I'll complain even more . As is stands presently, they can say I don't know the exact house the dog was at (although I could go back and find out - there may be no house number name?) and thus side-step the issue. I don't know if we still have CPSO's as there was an announcement a few weeks ago that they were being dispensed with locally.

[SimonCelsa]

Google Richard Ballstyne’s Method

Wrong spelling, the correct name is Richard Ballantyne.

I do actually quite like dogs but his description of how to deal with a dog attack had me in hysterics:

I was reading "Richards Bicycle Book" by Richard Ballantine when I was dismayed, amused and alarmed in various measures to find the following passage in which Ballantine advises cyclists on how to deal with an unwelcome encounter with a dog. Those of a nervouse disposition might want to skip this.

"If the dog attacks: one defense is aerosol pepper sprays made for this purpose. They have a range of about ten feet and are light enough to clip to your handlebars. A water pistol loaded with a water-amonia solution will also work but is a good deal less convenient. If you have neither of these and can't or won't climb a tree get a stick or a large rock. No? The bicycle pump. Try to ram it down his throat. In any event, don't cower or cover up, because the dog will only chew you to ribbons. Attack. Any small dog can simply be hoisted up by the legs and his brains dashed out. With a big dog you are fighting for your life. If you are weaponless try to tangle him up in your bike and then strangle him. Kicks to the genitals and which break ribs are effective. If you have got a pump or a stick hold it at both ends and offer it up to the dog horizontally. Often the dog will bit the stick/pump and hang on. Immediately lift the dog up and deliver a very solid kick to the gemitals. Follow up with breaking the dogs ribs or crushing its head with a rock. If worst comes to worst ram your entire arm down its throat. He will choke and die. Better your arm than your throat."

The rest of the book is a fairly sober afair dealing with bike maitanence but this section jumped out at me not just because of the incredible level of violence it talks about but because of the many disturbing questions it raises, like how does he know all this and what must have happened to him to make him so utterly bonkers. I assure you I have changed nothing in the passage and that is how it apears in the book. I just wondered if other people would think it as insane as I did/

Maybe I've got a warped sense of humour,

All the best, Simon

[nirakaro]

On a lighter note, the only time I've ever been chased by a dog, my attempt to kick it led to me coming off the bike, spraying the contents of my – foolishly unzipped – barbag all over the road. Right in front of a large bus queue. In a rather downmarket area of Naples. Great entertainment value!

[thirdcrank]

... My (possibly flawed) logic is that if I do as the Police advised me yesterday (ie. call 999 if dogs are loose again) I will have cause to complain if they don't appear, and will quote the 'phone conversation and incident number given yesterday. Maybe the taped conversation will then 'have been lost ' If so I'll complain even more . As is stands presently, they can say I don't know the exact house the dog was at (although I could go back and find out - there may be no house number name?) and thus side-step the issue. I don't know if we still have CPSO's as there was an announcement a few weeks ago that they were being dispensed with locally.

My usual advice about complaining is to think about what you want to achieve. Proving at some later date that somebody in a control room gave you poor advice / poor service, etc., might give a certain satisfaction but it wouldn't deal with the problem of the dog, not least because you would have to experience another Helms cartoon episode before raising the issue. Raising it now should result in clarification of the local force's policy. (The point about not knowing the exact address of the incident is completely understandable in the circumstances, but it's an example of what I meant about problems with investigation. BTW, streetview might help.)

On the matter of recording calls, I've no idea what the present system involves. My experience dates from thirty years ago, when our central control room had a huge analogue tape-recorder with twin multi-channel tapes, each several feet in diameter, one providing the master recording and the other the working copy. Times change.

Ultimately, it's what you feel most comfortable (least uncomfortable ?) with. As I tried to explain above, dealing with dogs has been a problem historically.

[Tangled Metal]

The fist down the throat and throttle the dog technique was one I saw Lofty Wiseman the former SAS guy come survival expert on a night time chat show of the calibre of Parkinson (there's no good chat shows these days just the Norton rubbish with it's gimmicks and need for alcohol to loosen guests tongues).

The other technique I learnt about from that interview was to grab both front legs and separate them sideways. Dogs can't do the splits that way and it allows you to hold the dog away from you. You do it until the legs snap or ribs do or something like that. Put it this way the dog is dead or at least unable to walk again. Most likely a vet would put it down. No more problem dog.

BTW I do not support the harming of any dog even dangerous ones. I would like to reserve the right to inflict this level of injury on the most irresponsible owners though. It's the owners fault the dog is like it is. We should be allowed to punish the owners more. Spatchcock the owner not just the dog!

[thirdcrank]

Tangled Metal

The real trick is to manage one of those methods while you are riding a bike. Or when you are with a child in a pushchair. Or judging by the most recent changes to the legislation, if you are blind and relying on a dog which has been selected and trained to be unaggressive.

[reohn2]

The desired result is to repel the dog attacking you however playful it might appear to be as even a playful dog can cause a rider to fall,vinegar in a bidon works as we found out with Portugese dogs which tend to hang around in packs of four to six in villages there,a stoker with a good aim helps too

Carrying pepper spray or similar it illegal in the UK I believe,vinegar isn't and even diluted a little with water still packs a punch and has the desired effect.

I do not wish to get to the stage where I'm man handling a dog,it ain't health.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

If a dog owner isn't in control of their dog it's an offence.

I have found out that pointing this out to the owner is regarded as an invitation to getting my teeth kicked in. We have to remember that little fluffy can do no wrong and we must not expect dog owners to take the trouble to train the mutt out of bad habits.

After a dog chasing me and barking no less than six times (I am a dog owner and did paper rounds in my youth so I am not afraid of dogs at all but wary of dog getting in front of my wheel and me falling off only for owner to say did dog bite me? and then walk off ) it all came to a head with four adults blocking my way on public highway and verbally abusing and threatening me
Just because I asked repeat ably for the owner to control their dog.............you follow that with word lead. which then turns owner into a monster of avoidance and foul behaviour.
This is an all traffic road whatever public, it is not maintained so quite, so frequented by dog walkers just like tarmacked lanes on a summers day, after lunch walkies dogs running free.......................

Police is a waste of time and I can see councils (contractors) getting the job ( job remit on paper only) under some heading of public disturbance control officer.........probably ex job retired with pension in excess of the plebs they will lord over.................

Best tool of the lot (I carry two) which may bring tears or abuse wrongly, is to carry a video camera which can be accessed quickly even if it does not work, and say you will present it, to owner.

Apart from biting your teeth and taking avoiding action I see there is little to do on the subject.