Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
JohnW
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby JohnW » 23 Aug 2018, 12:37pm

fastpedaller wrote:............. don't seem to be bothered that a cyclist could be hurt................but maybe that's typical of society nowadays? ................... it's only a minor matter, and I'm just an inconvenience..............not in the least bothered about me.............Am I over reacting?................


Of course you're not over reacting in ethical or moral terms - but you were a cyclist - not a motorist. Do you really expect respect? - do you really think that your life is worth anything to authority?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Aug 2018, 2:04pm

Worth sufficient to have responded and resolved the matter and reported back to the OP, all within 2 hours.

What steps would you suggest were missing or inadequate, given the facts as they have been described?

JohnW
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Location: Yorkshire

Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby JohnW » 23 Aug 2018, 8:54pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Worth sufficient to have responded and resolved the matter and reported back to the OP, all within 2 hours.

What steps would you suggest were missing or inadequate, given the facts as they have been described?


I think that if you read fastpeddlar's post from the previous page, you may see that the sequence of rhetoric answers the question. I submit that the response from the police switchboard should have ask questions from a base of concern for humanity (pedestrians, equestrians as well as cyclists) rather than a car or it's contents.

That's just my view of the situation and of the attitudes of decision makers and those in authority. If ever you've tried to discuss highway condition safety for cyclists with highways officers/departments you may have found similar Q&A sequences. I've made my post(s) on the matter and further discussion will just become fraught and involved, so I won't pursue this chain of thought, except with particular reference to dangerous dogs.

gregoryoftours
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby gregoryoftours » 23 Aug 2018, 11:43pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:I agree with the above comments, and also suspected (at the time) the operator was following a script. The strange thing was that although she clearly didn't want to deviate from the script, when I agreed "yes that is possibly something that could happen" to the car rolling, she sensed my 'lack of sincerity' She wanted me to be me more concerned about this hypothetical than my own welfare or that of a pedestrian (also htpothetical :lol: ), and although following the script, felt ok about interpreting it as she felt fit (my interpretation of course)
The Officer told me the call centre is in Wymondham (about 25 miles from here, but a norfolk location). Top marks to the Officer for following this up, and hopefully the dogs won't cause a problem to anyone in future.

She sounds like she was trying to help you to tick the boxes that lead to a response. We experienced similar when we had a dog attack experience, albeit from the officers who attended.


Of course it's not ideal that in order for the incident to be followed up it has to be recorded in such terms, but this is beyond the call centre operator's control. She obviously repeated the leading question because she knew that was the required in order for the incident to be followed up, which it was.

If she hadn't finally got the danger to motorists bit out of you probably nothing else would have happened. She can't change the rules or boxes to tick so for her persistence she did a good job and got a meaningful result, even though the route to it wasn't very gratifying.

The reporting of the incident shows that the rules around what gets acted on need changing, along with a broader change in attitude to road users who aren't motorists, but a call centre incident report is never going to be the forum for that to happen. It would be better to find out who draws up that list of rules/ticky boxes, or some suggestions forum, or write to local MP and get them to follow it up.

JohnW
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Location: Yorkshire

Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby JohnW » 24 Aug 2018, 9:20am

gregoryoftours wrote:Of course it's not ideal that in order for the incident to be followed up it has to be recorded in such terms, but this is beyond the call centre operator's control. She obviously repeated the leading question because she knew that was the required in order for the incident to be followed up, which it was.

If she hadn't finally got the danger to motorists bit out of you probably nothing else would have happened. She can't change the rules or boxes to tick so for her persistence she did a good job and got a meaningful result, even though the route to it wasn't very gratifying.

The reporting of the incident shows that the rules around what gets acted on need changing, along with a broader change in attitude to road users who aren't motorists, but a call centre incident report is never going to be the forum for that to happen. It would be better to find out who draws up that list of rules/ticky boxes, or some suggestions forum, or write to local MP and get them to follow it up.


I think you're right Greg - it's not the individual that's to blame, it's the system and those in authority who devise the system - but I submit that the system, and the attitudes that spawn the system, are fundamentally morally flawed.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Aug 2018, 12:54pm

JohnW wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Worth sufficient to have responded and resolved the matter and reported back to the OP, all within 2 hours.

What steps would you suggest were missing or inadequate, given the facts as they have been described?


I think that if you read fastpeddlar's post from the previous page, you may see that the sequence of rhetoric answers the question. I submit that the response from the police switchboard should have ask questions from a base of concern for humanity (pedestrians, equestrians as well as cyclists) rather than a car or it's contents.

That's just my view of the situation and of the attitudes of decision makers and those in authority. If ever you've tried to discuss highway condition safety for cyclists with highways officers/departments you may have found similar Q&A sequences. I've made my post(s) on the matter and further discussion will just become fraught and involved, so I won't pursue this chain of thought, except with particular reference to dangerous dogs.

I have recently become involved in local politics to attempt to influence change. In fact I spent most of last weekend writing a detailed paper to put into the planning process. Thus far I and colleagues have received nothing but positive support and advice.

I refrained from explaining their moral bankruptcy to them as I didn't think that particularly conducive to success of the proposal.

fastpedaller
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby fastpedaller » 25 Aug 2018, 6:36pm

It happened again today! This time about 1 mile from the house - they were (it would appear) being taken walkies by a lady in a mobility scooter. The white dog (and the one one with it) were not on leads. Only the white one chased. I know the lady who was in 'control' of them - I reported it on the non-emergency line, but they told me to email, so I did as requested. As an aside, the Police officer said there was a fence - I checked as I passed the house today, and the only fence is between the garden next door - the dogs (if roaming free in the front garden like last week) can go anywhere.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Aug 2018, 7:20pm

Formal complaint, in writing that there is an out of control dog. Also report in exactly the same format to the dog warden.

JohnW
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby JohnW » 25 Aug 2018, 9:39pm

Bonefishblues wrote:..................I have recently become involved in local politics to attempt to influence change. In fact I spent most of last weekend writing a detailed paper to put into the planning process. Thus far I and colleagues have received nothing but positive support and advice.

I refrained from explaining their moral bankruptcy to them as I didn't think that particularly conducive to success of the proposal.


I sincerely wish you well. There are so many people in local authority officialdom who are involved in these matters, and I found that none of them either cycled or understood cycling - except one. This one was a junior officer, aligned with a local LBS, and his view was that CTC represented old guys in baggy shorts and flat caps and we were a joke. He knew everything about cycling :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :wink: , and was listened to internally. Higher ranking officers told me that they'd consult and listen where they were legally obliged to but not otherwise - and cyclists' safety was not on their agenda. Informal chats with elected members simply indicated that the only way to travel was in their car - cycle-lanes, 'bus lanes, controlled pedestrian crossings simply delayed motorists and cost money. When they uttered through the press they said all the right things, but still didn't understand, weren't interested, and did nothing.

You were right to refrain from explaining - don't criticise them, don't argue with them, don't try to explain the truth - you'll feel like you're being smarmy but at least you won't be involved in arguments. This was early in 21st century - there are indications that things may possibly be changing..........but don't hold your breath. I sincerely wish you well.

JohnW
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby JohnW » 25 Aug 2018, 9:42pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Formal complaint, in writing that there is an out of control dog. Also report in exactly the same format to the dog warden.

.............................or have you thought about a dog-dazer - or doing what I did and aim to run it down. Have you had a friendly chat with the old lass on the mobility scooter? There's a chance that she may be a nice old lady and embarrassed by it all.

fastpedaller
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby fastpedaller » 25 Aug 2018, 10:43pm

JohnW wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Formal complaint, in writing that there is an out of control dog. Also report in exactly the same format to the dog warden.

.............................or have you thought about a dog-dazer - or doing what I did and aim to run it down. Have you had a friendly chat with the old lass on the mobility scooter? There's a chance that she may be a nice old lady and embarrassed by it all.


She is a really nice old lady - her grandaughter was a friend of our daughter, and the old lady gave us an open invitation once that we were welcome at any time for tea and scones. :D
I wouldn't want to upset her, but someone less experienced (or not expecting it, as I now am) could be knocked off, or end up being knocked off by a car as a consequence of this dog's actions.
My wife said I should come home a different route :roll: - Unfortunately she was brought up to believe authority should never be questioned, and she can't shake off this upbringing. I fear that one day If I'm knocked off she will just accept the authorities saying 'It was an accident' without question.

JohnW
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Location: Yorkshire

Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby JohnW » 25 Aug 2018, 11:00pm

fastpedaller wrote:
JohnW wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Formal complaint, in writing that there is an out of control dog. Also report in exactly the same format to the dog warden.

.............................or have you thought about a dog-dazer - or doing what I did and aim to run it down. Have you had a friendly chat with the old lass on the mobility scooter? There's a chance that she may be a nice old lady and embarrassed by it all.


She is a really nice old lady - her grandaughter was a friend of our daughter, and the old lady gave us an open invitation once that we were welcome at any time for tea and scones. :D
I wouldn't want to upset her, but someone less experienced (or not expecting it, as I now am) could be knocked off, or end up being knocked off by a car as a consequence of this dog's actions.
My wife said I should come home a different route :roll: - Unfortunately she was brought up to believe authority should never be questioned, and she can't shake off this upbringing. I fear that one day If I'm knocked off she will just accept the authorities saying 'It was an accident' without question.


Ah - not the situation that I'd imagined. Why not have a gentle word with the old lady? If you stop, you may be able to make friends with the dog - some dogs are quite OK except they chase bikes. It may get to recognise your voice and see you as a friend. Do you ever walk past the house? - does the dog 'worry' walkers? - would the dog accept a biscuit perhaps? As the dog's owner is not an irresponsible, aggressive 'ne'r-do-well', there must be another way. You could accept the tea and scones and see what happens. If the dog really is a rescue dog, there may be something in it's previous life to explain it's behaviour.

fastpedaller
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby fastpedaller » 25 Aug 2018, 11:15pm

JohnW wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
JohnW wrote:.............................or have you thought about a dog-dazer - or doing what I did and aim to run it down. Have you had a friendly chat with the old lass on the mobility scooter? There's a chance that she may be a nice old lady and embarrassed by it all.


She is a really nice old lady - her grandaughter was a friend of our daughter, and the old lady gave us an open invitation once that we were welcome at any time for tea and scones. :D
I wouldn't want to upset her, but someone less experienced (or not expecting it, as I now am) could be knocked off, or end up being knocked off by a car as a consequence of this dog's actions.
My wife said I should come home a different route :roll: - Unfortunately she was brought up to believe authority should never be questioned, and she can't shake off this upbringing. I fear that one day If I'm knocked off she will just accept the authorities saying 'It was an accident' without question.


Ah - not the situation that I'd imagined. Why not have a gentle word with the old lady? If you stop, you may be able to make friends with the dog - some dogs are quite OK except they chase bikes. It may get to recognise your voice and see you as a friend. Do you ever walk past the house? - does the dog 'worry' walkers? - would the dog accept a biscuit perhaps? As the dog's owner is not an irresponsible, aggressive 'ne'r-do-well', there must be another way. You could accept the tea and scones and see what happens. If the dog really is a rescue dog, there may be something in it's previous life to explain it's behaviour.

Sorry if I haven't explained very well- the dear old lady isn't the owner, and I suspect was just taking the dogs for a walk. The white dog (according to the lady on the next road who saw the first attack on me in November) is a 'b@@@@ nuisance who goes for anyone who passes.
My worry (apart from being a victim myself) is that an unsuspecting younger (or less experienced) rider could be a victim.
Something needs to be done 'at source' and I (and the officer last week) thought this was a done deal. I contacted the dog warden last november (his first reaction was that it was a Police matter. not him) but said he would 'maybe attend' - whether he did this is unknown to me.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby Bonefishblues » 26 Aug 2018, 7:52am

I agree that there's a broader duty here. I simply cannot comprehend an owner of a dog not controlling it. The fact is that if it bites someone, as seems highly likely, then the consequences are that they will be charged with an offence, the dog will be destroyed, and there will be the trauma and harm to the affected person.

I still think that in your situation I would be getting rather strident with the police and dog warden.

fastpedaller
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Re: Dog Attack! - Apparently not.

Postby fastpedaller » 26 Aug 2018, 3:02pm

Bonefishblues wrote:I agree that there's a broader duty here. I simply cannot comprehend an owner of a dog not controlling it. The fact is that if it bites someone, as seems highly likely, then the consequences are that they will be charged with an offence, the dog will be destroyed, and there will be the trauma and harm to the affected person.

I still think that in your situation I would be getting rather strident with the police and dog warden.

If the Police start saying "you should wear a helmet" rather than sorting this out ...... I don't know what I'll say, and could get a bit heated :oops: