Natural clothing

[PH]

Is there any such thing as environmentally friendly dry cleaning? I'd assumed not, though it's decades since I've had anything that needed it.
If not, we're back to the conundrum of trying to weigh up the pros, cons and impact of what we buy.

[pjclinch]

I understand that water causes the fibres in Ventile to swell, making it to a certain extent impervious. I don't have any problem with the concept, but I'm unclear why the fabric benefits from treatment with waterproofing potions which I would have thought would reduce the swelling of the fibres through getting wet. ie If it needs to get wet to work, why stop it getting wet?

Caveat: I'm making educated guesses here, I don't properly know...

I think it's probably the case that in a light shower where a DWR will see off anything quite easily it means that the coat won't take on water and get heavier, and won't need to dry. As we've generally all experienced, DWRs are somewhat less than perfect and will be defeated after a while, and at this point the cotton will soak up the water, swell up and block the holes. So to start with the DWR takes the strain, but when the going gets tough the cotton swelling takes over. If the DWR is enough you don't get wet because of the DWR, if it isn't enough you don't get wet because of the Ventile.
Or something...

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

According to the ads, Ventile was invented specifically to protect RAF pilots forced to land in the sea for the hopefully short period before they could be rescued. It sounds to have been quite successful in that grim situation.

Without going back to quote the exact words, it needs a double layer to make it waterproof. OK, but for how long? It seems to me that's what's really happening is that this legendary stuff keeps out the water, but for only so long, so an inner layer, protected by an outer one, should keep you more or less dry in most circumstances but it's ultimately a question of how long each layer keeps water out. I can't get away from the idea that it's a pricey solution. And that's before the special needs of cycling - lightweight and minimising condensation - are taken into account.

[pjclinch]

According to the ads, Ventile was invented specifically to protect RAF pilots forced to land in the sea for the hopefully short period before they could be rescued. It sounds to have been quite successful in that grim situation.

Without going back to quote the exact words, it needs a double layer to make it waterproof. OK, but for how long? It seems to me that's what's really happening is that this legendary stuff keeps out the water, but for only so long, so an inner layer, protected by an outer one, should keep you more or less dry in most circumstances but it's ultimately a question of how long each layer keeps water out.

Don't forget that the RAF original was an immersion suit, so it was to deal with water under pressure, which isn't necessary for mere rain. All you'll get through the top layer in rain is a drizzle and the second layer should easily deal with that. In a similar vein, Paramo Analogy stuff isn't technically waterproof as it doesn't have sufficient hydrostatic head, but it is effectively rainproof (sleetproof too, as I found out earlier today...) which is what matters to your typical cyclist or walker, if not necessarily people taking a dunk.

I can't get away from the idea that it's a pricey solution. And that's before the special needs of cycling - lightweight and minimising condensation - are taken into account.

Certainly it's expensive, but you have the comfortable, breathable all-day coat that happens to step up when the rain comes on. Paramo does this too, but it's also relatively heavy and bulky and warmer than you might want because of the liner. There are people that always go out in breathable membrane waterproofs but for a lot of people, a lot of the time, they're not breathable enough. Certainly nowhere near as good as their marketing typically implies.

Ventile is a bit a niche item, but it does hit some bases that nothing else quite does. Perhaps of relevance to Chris Hoy with his riding to the South Pole project, it's reckoned to be a good Weapon of Choice for polar travel, being more windproof than most woven fabrics and far more breathable than membrane waterproofs. I'd try the Hilltrek if it was cheaper... but it isn't!

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

I've mentioned on other threads that my experience of Ventile is limited. In the early 1970's, when we hadn't two ha'pennies to rub together, we used to be grateful to friends who let us holiday in their farmhouse above Clapham, and I used to drool over a couple of Ventile jackets in a traditional gents outfitters in Settle: all tweed and corduroy for the Dales farmers. (Historical note: that was when Rohan had only the Long Preston shop.) . Anyway, after perhaps a couple of years of my snotty sneck pressed against their display window, which was covered in amber plastic film when it was sunny to prevent stuff fading, they had a sale - a proper old-fashioned sale to shift old stock and I got my longed-for Ventile jacket half price. A very light fawn colour so it showed up the muck so it was forever being dry-cleaned and re-proofed. At the price, I ecpected it to last forever but it didn't. Great expectations unfulfilled I suppose. More recently I got a pair of Ventile trousers in TKMaxx for a tenner, reduced from £300. Single layer but perfect for things like gardening. Apart from that, I've several times tried on the Country Innovations stuff that the RSPB has on sale - I don't know how many they sell - at some of their posher visitor centres eg Titchwell. OK for Bill Oddy impersonations but it did strike me as heavy, even when dry. I've no plans for polar exploration either.

BTW. I can see that floating in the sea involves immeasurably more water than riding a bike, even without mudguards, but is seawater under pressure?

[elPedro666]

even without mudguards, but is seawater under pressure?

Unthinkable! [emoji12]
Not on the surface, but - assuming that you're floating - the water must be producing enough upward force to keep you there...

Far be it from me to drag a thread back to the original question (very out of character), in terms of the total environmental - and social - cost I don't think anything has come close to Paramo yet? At the risk of sounding like a NikWax fanboy (I admittedly am) stuck on repeat, they also keep you dry, breath/vent better than anything else I've used, don't rustle like some hardshells, are lightweight and pack small enough that I can just about squeeze my smock* into a rear jersey pocket at a push. Plus there's no coatings, they (occasionally) go in the washing machine so no dry cleaning required, and the hoods actually work brilliantly, allowing you to see and move freely - you can even wear it over a helmet if things are really grim out!


*Velez Adventure Light - this and the Quito jacket are the two I thought looked most appropriate for cycling, with the lighter version of the fabric and dropped tails. As mentioned above I imagine that the heavier versions must run very warm!

Currently on sale in GoOutdoors too...

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly using hovercraft full of eels.

[pjclinch]

Paramo... Plus there's no coatings

The pump liner won't work properly without a DWR coating, and the outer layer certainly works better with one. Paramo unsurprisingly suggest you use Nikwax's (they're sister, or at least cousin, companies) and Nikwax appear to go to some effort to be environmentally friendly and use water-based rather than Nasty-based goops.

they (occasionally) go in the washing machine so no dry cleaning required

They need to be washed in pure soap to maintain performance (detergents have a rather opposite effect to a DWR, a DWR makes water bead up while a detergent helps it soak in, breaking up droplets: detergents won't destroy a DWR but can mask its effects). While Paramo again suggest Nikwax soap, it's just soap and as long as it has no additives any pure soap will do. Dripak, Tesco etc. make what amounts to the same thing at a much lower price.

*Velez Adventure Light - this and the Quito jacket are the two I thought looked most appropriate for cycling, with the lighter version of the fabric and dropped tails. As mentioned above I imagine that the heavier versions must run very warm!

Older Paramo garments have a heavier (and warmer) liner, but for years now (at least 10, probably more than 15) they've all had a lighter weight one. The difference between heavier and light garments in the range is, IIRC, down to the outer shell fabric which doesn't have much in the way of insulation properties, so the light ones won't be much different in terms of temperature.

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

I presume that using real soap means true handwash only, rather than anything in a machine, even if it has a handwash programme.

With detergent AFAIK, the level of foam is decided by the manufacturer: washing up liquid = loads of foam to make you think it washes loads of dishes, laundry detergent = much less foam to prevent filling your house with froth but just enough to make you believe it works.

[elPedro666]

Paramo... Plus there's no coatings

The pump liner won't work properly without a DWR coating, and the outer layer certainly works better with one. Paramo unsurprisingly suggest you use Nikwax's (they're sister, or at least cousin, companies) and Nikwax appear to go to some effort to be environmentally friendly and use water-based rather than Nasty-based goops.

they (occasionally) go in the washing machine so no dry cleaning required

They need to be washed in pure soap to maintain performance (detergents have a rather opposite effect to a DWR, a DWR makes water bead up while a detergent helps it soak in, breaking up droplets: detergents won't destroy a DWR but can mask its effects). While Paramo again suggest Nikwax soap, it's just soap and as long as it has no additives any pure soap will do. Dripak, Tesco etc. make what amounts to the same thing at a much lower price.

*Velez Adventure Light - this and the Quito jacket are the two I thought looked most appropriate for cycling, with the lighter version of the fabric and dropped tails. As mentioned above I imagine that the heavier versions must run very warm!

Older Paramo garments have a heavier (and warmer) liner, but for years now (at least 10, probably more than 15) they've all had a lighter weight one. The difference between heavier and light garments in the range is, IIRC, down to the outer shell fabric which doesn't have much in the way of insulation properties, so the light ones won't be much different in terms of temperature.

Pete.

I'm not thinking of TX-direct as a DWR in the same way as the stuff I used to have to spray onto Gore-Tex, but perhaps it is, either way no spraying and most importantly to the original question, PFC-free.

Nikwax is indeed also a Nick Brown company and they're designed to work together - pure soap may well be just as good but I buy TechWash in 5l tubs which are much better value and last forever & a day, so it's no expense to stick with what's recommended. I also have a huge amount of time for how he/they conduct their business, both socially and environmentally - the ethics section of the website makes for heartwarming reading in a time of disposable everything and the 'cheapest is best' mantra, regardless of the true costs.

I read that the problem with detergent was a build up in the fabric, blocking the membrane and trapping moisture inside. This obviously applies more to Gore-Tex style materials which I was persevering with at the time, interesting to consider the effects of breaking surface tension. In combination they must really knacker the breathability!

Just had a feel of my better half's jacket (Analogy compared to my Analogy Light) and it is significantly chunkier, but the extra padding seems to be in the middle layer - would have to be seriously cold before I'd want to ride hard in the 'normal' version! Fairly sure neither is over ten years old but couldn't say for sure. Better half now thinks I'm mental standing in the hallway fondling waterproofs... [emoji28]

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly using hovercraft full of eels.

[pjclinch]

I presume that using real soap means true handwash only, rather than anything in a machine, even if it has a handwash programme.

No, it just means using soap rather than a detergent (they work in chemically different ways, detergents specifically by reducing surface tension so it's easier for water to penetrate the fabric to get it clean).

A pure liquid soap like Dripak Liquid Soap Flakes goes in the machine just like any other laundry liquid. Some purists insist on running an empty hot wash with soda and then another with vinegar to clear out any detergent residues, but ICBA with all that and will take a minor performance hit over a great deal of Faff.

You can use traditional soap flakes but that does tend to go in to Foam Overdrive.

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

... You can use traditional soap flakes but that does tend to go in to Foam Overdrive.....

That was the bit that I was querying; I didn't appreciate there was some sort of low-suds soap.

Re detergent foam, in the 1950's we lived in Castleford which is downstream of most of the industrial part of the West Riding and has a weir for the flour mill in the middle of town. The river itself was always covered with a carpet of foam many feet thick for some distance below the weir and whenever it was windy, large blobs of foam used to blow about the town centre. That was in the early days of domestic washing machines and detergents and the tale was that they were still making them foam to convince housewives that they worked as well as soap.

(FWIW, I remember how to make soap from having done so in school science classes. In our student days before we were married, I astounded my wife by explaining the process in detail when the subject came up in some lecture or other. We were modern language students so I can't remember the relevance. There may have been none. )

[pjclinch]

I'm not thinking of TX-direct as a DWR in the same way as the stuff I used to have to spray onto Gore-Tex, but perhaps it is, either way no spraying and most importantly to the original question, PFC-free.

Nikwax DWRs are often used to restore the DWRs on Goretex and similar coats. The fundamental point is it helps keep water from soaking in to the fabric. The difference between spray-on and wash-in isn't down to the formula but more about how the garment works. Something like a Buffalo pile/pertex shirt requires the inner pile lining to be a wick, so if you use a wash-in that'll foul that up and the garment won't work as designed, so for a Buffalo it's a spray on the outer. For a Paramo jacket the liner must be DWR coated to work (it channels water along the spaces in the fabric by capillary action, not along the fibres acting as wicks), so that's a wash in. Wash-ins are easier, but where the inner has a wicking component you're typically better off with a spray-on.

Nikwax is indeed also a Nick Brown company and they're designed to work together - pure soap may well be just as good but I buy TechWash in 5l tubs which are much better value and last forever & a day, so it's no expense to stick with what's recommended.

£27/5 litres, £5.40 a litre for the Nikwax against £2/0.75l, £2.67 a litre for the Dripak. It won't break the bank, but it's still twice as much. If it was whizzy high tech I might be inclined to go for the Big Name, but the thing is the particular schtick of these liquid soaps is precisely that there's nothing fancy going on.

I read that the problem with detergent was a build up in the fabric, blocking the membrane and trapping moisture inside. This obviously applies more to Gore-Tex style materials which I was persevering with at the time, interesting to consider the effects of breaking surface tension. In combination they must really knacker the breathability!

I don't think there's any particular case for that, and detergents are actually recommended for washing some membrane-based waterproofs because by and large they do a better job than soap (which is why the laundry liquid aisle at the supermarket is dominated by detergents). The important thing is to rinse them out effectively, but they wouldn't contaminate Goretex (since the first version suffered from contamination by body oils Goretex has had a PU smear over the membrane to prevent that sort of thing).
Detergents per se should do nothing to affect the breathability. if the face fabric isn't properly rinsed (a soap wash is a good way to rinse it) it'll be easier for water to soak in to it and create effectively a sheet of water up against the membrane. That's what hammers the breathability, as there will generally be insufficient vapour pressure from the inside to push through that.

Just had a feel of my better half's jacket (Analogy compared to my Analogy Light) and it is significantly chunkier, but the extra padding seems to be in the middle layer - would have to be seriously cold before I'd want to ride hard in the 'normal' version! Fairly sure neither is over ten years old but couldn't say for sure.

To quote Paramo:
Nikwax Analogy comes in two weights to suit different requirements:
Nikwax Analogy®: very durable weather protection.
Nikwax Analogy® Light: same weather protection at a lighter fabric weight.

The liner itself is the same fabric, the more durable comes from a chunkier outer. See this OM review for verification

Pete.

[Winged wheels]

Great food for thought thank you. When humidity rises I have used a cape and still do. Can mean dropping a gear to bear the west county winds.17 years of commute and it’s coming to the end. Has draw backs but keeps legs dry. Long day rides are not fun in it. I also use an endura jacket autumn winter which I get 4 -5 years out of.
My green criteria include disposal at end of life. Wool will rot down but mannade fibres don’t hence my thoughts on cotton. Ethical issues with cotton as well as environmental. I like the idea of Bam and is my sock and tee shirt choice.
I guess at this point cotton is the least worst option??

[pjclinch]

My green criteria include disposal at end of life. Wool will rot down but mannade fibres don’t hence my thoughts on cotton. Ethical issues with cotton as well as environmental. I like the idea of Bam and is my sock and tee shirt choice.
I guess at this point cotton is the least worst option??

"Least worst" will depend on your particular definition of "worst": as this thread has suggested there are goalposts in all sorts of directions.

Folk have already highlighted Nikwax's green credientials, I think it's worth ltaking a look at Patagonia's too, particularly their end-of-life policies. For example, http://eu.patagonia.com/gb/en/reuse-recycle.html. A quick look at their waterproof selection shows at least one that is specifically designed to be fully recyclable, e.g. the Cloud Ridge

Pete.

[thirdcrank]

On the subject of disposing of unwanted jackets etc., it is worth considering giving them to charity. Apart from the obvious charity shops, and the system whereby Rohan offer a discount on new togs if old stuff is donated there are some which store clothing for their clients. Locally, an excellent charity is St George's Crypt in the centre of Leeds. They had a news item on BBC local news when the Beast from the East was on the prowl explaining the value of weatherproof clothing. I'm not sure about something as specific as a racing cape, but a weatherproof jacket is a weatherproof jacket

http://www.stgeorgescrypt.org.uk/charity/